Financially Inclined August 30, 2024 Transcript

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Yanely Espinal: What’s up, everybody! I’m Yanely Espinal and welcome to Financially Inclined from Marketplace. We’re sharing money lessons for living life your own way. This episode is all about dark patterns, the ways websites are subtly designed to trick you into spending money. It’s important to know how to spot dark patterns because we all run into them when we’re using websites, apps, or online services. Professor Jasmine McNealy is here to help us break down the basics. She’s a Tech and Data Researcher at the University of Florida, and she knows all the ins and outs of how dark patterns get us to do things we don’t really want to do. So let’s get right into it with Jasmine!

Yanely Espinal: So let’s start with what is a dark pattern, or deceptive pattern?

Prof. Jasmine McNealy: A dark pattern is a way that developers or designers have designed a site that gets people to give up something of value that they otherwise would not give up. It is a way of designing, a way of using language, a way of using sound that persuades or deceives people into doing things they otherwise wouldn’t do.

Yanely Espinal: So Jasmine, what are some examples of places where teens might actually come across some of these common dark patterns when they’re online?

Prof. Jasmine McNealy: So a common dark pattern that people see online, they’re on a website and up pops, “Hey, give us your email address, and you can get discounts right at this store,” or “give us your email address, and you’ll get our newsletter we’ll send to you every day” or whatever, right? And they’ll make it hard to see how to X out of that pop up, right? That’s a dark pattern, because, like, after a while, certain people get really frustrated or persuaded. Let me just put my email in – let me put somebody’s email in, right? – and then it’ll go away. But if we search well enough, we may be able to find that x or know that we can just click the other part of the page to get away from it. But sometimes that doesn’t happen also. So those are the cases where it’s like you’re putting people under duress, where they really want to get certain information, but to do that, they have to give up something that they weren’t planning on or don’t want to give up.

Yanely Espinal: Yeah, I think the key is that they don’t want to, and you’re sort of making them feel like they have to. Now, okay, so the pop-up itself is not the dark pattern; it’s the hiding how to exit is the dark pattern, and so that’s key. What are some other common types of dark patterns that you’ve seen? And what are some that are, like, especially relevant to, like, teenagers who are on their phones a lot? 

Prof. Jasmine McNealy: Yeah. So, I mean, like, I think teenagers, but just like us older – right? – people, also, we shop online. It’s common. It’s very common to find ourselves on different sites where we can buy stuff, whether it’s Amazon. One of the things that we have to be aware of is what’s actually going in our cart, and making sure that those things that are in our cart are actually things that we want, or that we’ve actually said “put in cart.” A common dark pattern is the placing of things in your cart that you didn’t want, that you didn’t like, ask to buy for, whether that’s warranties or extensions or complementary goods they think, you know, oh, you might like this. This probably goes well with this, right? But if you’re not paying attention, you will be paying for that thing that you didn’t want.

Yanely Espinal: I’ve definitely been seeing that one a lot, and I’ve experienced it. I’m like, “What is this in here?” And then have to, like, actively, like, delete it from my cart, when I never, I never hit “Add to cart in the first place.” So I don’t know why they did it, but that makes sense: it’s a dark pattern. What are some other ones that you’ve seen, too? 

Prof. Jasmine McNealy: One common dark pattern is the opt-inopt-out. So they’ve already opted in for you, and if you’re not paying attention, then you’ll be opted into receiving emails, to, you know, whatever kind of service that you’ve added into, all because you didn’t notice you needed to click off of a, you know, button, for example. Another very common one would be the complicated cancellation. You cannot unsubscribe, or you can’t find out how to unsubscribe from a service. Or another kind of like way they get people to carry on with the subscription is, while you can subscribe online, you have to call them to unsubscribe. So complicated cancelation is another very common one. 

Yanely Espinal: Yeah, they basically are putting up any barrier to make you not exit, not unsubscribe. Right?

Prof. Jasmine McNealy: Absolutely. For gaming, common one is pay me. Pay me to go to the next level. Pay to get this bonus thing that you really need to get to the next level, but you won’t be able to unlock it but for you giving up certain amounts of money, right? That’s a very common one. Or like, how do you skip a advertisement? You have to do certain things. Or this is, this is a free app, a free game to play. “You want to be ad free? Hey, pay us this money.” 

And finally, social media. Social media – a dark pattern that people talk about a lot, but they don’t sometimes don’t recognize it as a dark pattern, is infinite scroll. Infinite scroll just continues to go and more information is loaded, go… more pictures are loaded, go… more video is loaded – to keep you there on the site, while you’re giving up more information you’re… They want to know what you’re viewing, what you like to view, what things you skip over, what things you swipe up really quickly. Some dark patterns are going to appear on sites where attention is the currency, where attention is the thing of value that the site wants, and that includes social media, all the social media sites, but they want you to stay.

Yanely Espinal: It seems like a lot of these sound like unfair, or like they’re using maybe manipulative tactics, right? So why are they choosing to use these types of patterns or practices? 

Prof. Jasmine McNealy: I mean, there’s a lot of different reasons that an organization might attempt to use these practices, and and that goes to the definition of dark pattern, right? Is to get you to give up something of value that you otherwise wouldn’t. Now, things of value online or in a connected space are a couple of different things: obvious one is money, right? So you put something in your shopping cart, they’re gonna get money, or you can’t find out how to unsubscribe, they’re gonna get at least another month’s worth of subscription money. But also, what’s very valuable to organizations, all different kinds of organizations now, is data. Right? The amount of time, the amount of attention that you spend, the amount of like freely given data: your email address, maybe your name, your birth date. That’s all very valuable for organizations to make profiles of who’s using their service, and then to make predictions or inferences about you, and to sell those to third parties, advertisers and other organization to whom the data is really valuable, and they could do a lot of different things with.

Yanely Espinal: That makes a lot of sense. So it seems like there’s new ones popping up all the time now, too, right? Like, you’ve seen one a couple times you might be used to it, but like, for example, I’ve seen one recently where I’m trying to book something and then they’re trying to add, like, a protection on that thing. And I’m like, “No, I don’t I don’t want to add protection, right?” But if I want to click No, I have to choose, “No, I am a moron, and I don’t want to protect my purchase.” And I’m like, “Ew, but I don’t want to click that either, but I don’t want to…” And so I just feel like, every time new ones are popping up, how can we stay alert on these new types of dark patterns popping up?

Prof. Jasmine McNeal: Yeah. So the one you’re talking about is confirmed shaming, so wherein you’re trying to get out of something, right? And they try to make you feel bad for doing it. But the thing about design and development of sites is they’re always thinking about how to get you to do something. And that doesn’t always have to be a negative thing, right? There are some designs that want to get you to make positive steps, right? Try to listen to a new song, try to watch a new movie. That’s not particularly bad, right? 

Yanely Espinal: Right. Yeah, yeah. 

Prof. Jasmine McNeal: But there are some that want the thing of value, right? So when they find out certain things aren’t working that much anymore, or people are hip to what they’re trying to do, then they have to come up with something else. 

Yanely Espinal: Would you say that there are maybe some tips or tricks or, like, maybe suggestions that you might have for how to avoid dark patterns or deceptive patterns when you’re online? 

Prof. Jasmine McNealy: Yes, I don’t know if you can really avoid them, right? So you’re going to be online, you’re going to be on the apps. What I would say is, pay attention. Pay attention both to what is being asked of you and also how to get out of it. Pay attention to changes in color, if you can. Changes or size and font, right, for how to get away or get out of things. Pay attention to what you’re buying or what’s appearing into your cart. And I say all those things that we can do, but I don’t put the blame on us: the blame lies solely with organizations for engaging in this kind of behavior. So don’t feel bad if you’ve encountered a dark pattern, or you’ve been like touched in some way by a dark pattern. It’s it’s unfortunately, the name of the game in living online, right? So organizations can be scammers. That’s just the bottom line. 

Yanely Espinal: Right. [laugh]

Prof. Jasmine McNealy: What I will say is, as much as you can, and the much as as much as it is to your ability, be aware. Pay more attention. X out. Say “no,” if you can and if you want to. Just be a little more aware of what that site is doing and is asking of you.

Yanely Espinal: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It feels like there’s just more technology advancing so quickly, and like it’s like we are up against the computers. Like we’re fighting a losing battle, almost, kind of thing, right? Like we can it’s impossible for us to really be able to keep up. And so, how do you find hope in in all of this that like, yeah, they’re to blame. But then it also leaves us feeling like we’re losing this, this fight.

Prof. Jasmine McNealy: Yeah, so the thing is, computers don’t work by themselves. They do not, they do not. I don’t know what, I don’t care what you’ve watched. I don’t care what you’ve read, you know, the latest movies, “Black Mirror.” Computers don’t work in and of themselves; they need people. So that means that people can also make sure that the computers, that the networks, are behaving in ways that better suit them, that are more positive and impactful in a positive way, whether than in a negative or deceitful way as well. And that may require concerted efforts, collective efforts, not to use, to say “no.” Also advocating with policymakers to do more, with respect to how businesses and other organizations, for that matter, are behaving in digital spaces and the design surrounding them. And there have been efforts that like that, and there are even more efforts to do that.

I will also say that some of our governments – government agencies, I should say – are saying, Look, this is not behavior that we can allow. This is deceitful. This is harmful, especially for young people, right? And so, some organizations are being taken to task for the way that they’ve designed certain things in order to, again, get that thing of value. And that’s happening now; it can happen a lot more. It will take for us to engage in the, I’m gonna say, political process, but that just means collective action. That means we can say we’re not going to go on X site and they have to deal with it. We can say we’re going to say no to everything that pops up. So collective action does work.

Yanely Espinal: Yeah, I love that. And I think one of the earlier steps to lead to collective action is like, what you’re doing right now is like educating us, because without that education, we won’t even realize sometimes how much we’re being taken advantage of, or how much we are being manipulated when we’re online. Because it kind of seems normal. I feel like, like when it first started happening, I remember thinking that this is just normal. I would, say, if I’m searching online for a pair of sneakers and I didn’t end up buying them, then later on, I’m on social media, and boom, the same sneaker pops up. I’m like, “It’s a sign that I need to buy them!” And it’s like: no, it’s not. It’s them looking at your data, knowing what you’re doing, and then using that to retarget. And even though it feels normal because we’re online a lot, that doesn’t mean that it’s okay. And the more you educate us, and the more we seek this type of education, the more we can feel empowered to say like, “No, that’s not right.”

Prof. Prof. Jasmine McNealy: Absolutely.

Yanely Espinal: Alright, now you know how to spot dark patterns. Next time you’re browsing social media, playing a video game, or shopping online – remember what Jasmine said: pay attention! Look out for those manipulative strategies to make sure you’re spending what you want, not more. You got this. I’ll see you next time!

Financially Inclined is brought to you by Marketplace from American Public Media, in collaboration with Next Gen Personal Finance. I’m your host, Yanely Espinal. Our Senior Producer is Zoë Saunders. Our Video Editor is Francesca Manto, and our Graphics Artist is Mallory Brangan. Our producer is Hannah Harris Green. And our intern is Marika Proctor. The podcast was edited by Courtney Bergsieker. Gary O’Keefe is our Sound engineer. Bridget Bodnar is the Director of Podcasts. Caitlin Esch is Supervising Producer. Francesca Levy is the Executive Director. Neal Scarbrough is the VP & General Manager of Marketplace. Our theme music is by Wonderly. Catch you next time!

Financially Inclined is funded in part by the Sy Syms Foundation, partnering with organizations and people working for a better and more just future since 1985. And special thanks to the Ranzetta Family Charitable Fund and Next Gen Personal Finance for continuing to support Marketplace in its work to make younger audiences smarter about the economy.