The promises and risks of carbon capture

Make Me Smart November 7, 2023 Transcript

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Kimberly Adams 

Hello, I’m Kimberly Adams Welcome back to Make Me Smart, where none of us is as smart as all of us.

Kai Ryssdal 

I’m Kai Ryssdal. Thanks for joining us on this Tuesday 7^th November is the date. One show one topic, the topic du jour is climate solutions with our continuing series. Today, carbon capture.

Kimberly Adams 

Right carbon capture is often touted as this potential way to address the climate crisis by basically sucking the carbon in the air and storing it underground. And the Biden administration recently put over a billion dollars towards carbon capture projects. So what we want to know is how this tech actually works, and whether it is a real viable solution. So here to make a smart about this is Nick Kusnetz, a staff writer at Inside Climate News. Welcome to the show.

Nicholas Kusnetz 

Hi, thank you for having me.

Kimberly Adams 

So first off, describe carbon capture, capture and how it actually works, please?

Nicholas Kusnetz 

So there are two kind of overlapping fields here. One is traditionally called carbon capture. And that’s about taking carbon dioxide out of smokestack pollution, then the other is a somewhat newer field called carbon removal. And that’s looking at pulling carbon dioxide straight out of the atmosphere. So that carbon removal, there’s a whole host of ways you can do that, including planting trees. But some of them are using some of the same technologies as carbon capture. And so for both of those, it’s about isolating carbon dioxide, CO2, and then compressing that gas and eventually pumping it underground for storage.

Kai Ryssdal 

Like straight into the ground, like dirt and rock and stuff?

Nicholas Kusnetz 

That’s the idea. I mean, it goes into geological formations that are porous, so that have some kind of space for it. In some cases, these are really similar, or even the same places where we’re pulling oil and gas out of it. In others. It’s essentially like saline saltwater, that’s deep down under the earth and could theoretically hold a lot of this gas.

Kai Ryssdal 

I don’t want to, I don’t want to be an alarmist here. But is there no opportunity for peril, they’re injecting stuff into the earth?

Nicholas Kusnetz 

There absolutely is. And that’s one of the big fears. I mean, there, this has been done for a number of decades at a relatively small scale. So in some cases, oil and gas companies have actually used CO2 to help pump oil out of the ground, right, right when the when the pressure is low. And a lot of that CO2 ends up staying down underground. There’s other cases where companies have pumped it into other formations under there, and kind of monitored it, monitor it, and found that it was stable. But the real concern is what happens when this is done at a bigger scale. Because there are a lot of things that can happen. There are cracks. It can leak through wells, it can leak through old oil and gas wells. And no one really knows, you know, where those points will be when this reaches a bigger scale.

Kimberly Adams 

And what happens when it leaks, I’m just not familiar with what happens when you have compressed CO2 in like the nooks and crannies and crevices of rocks underground?

Nicholas Kusnetz 

Sure well, even before it leaks another risk is earthquakes, like we’ve seen.

Kimberly Adams

Oh is that all?

Nicholas Kusnetz

That’s right. You know, this has happened a lot, particularly in like Texas, Oklahoma, where oil companies have been injecting wastewater underground, the water that comes up with the oil that they’re producing. And when they’re increasing the pressures in areas that have faults, in many cases, they’ve been inducing a lot of earthquakes, you know, in parts of Texas and Oklahoma have seen unprecedented levels of earthquakes. So there’s a similar risk potentially, with CO2, you know, if it’s not done properly and in the right places. But then with leaks, CO2, there’s a there’s a localized problem, which is that carbon dioxide is an asphyxiate. Right? So there’s a very low level of it in air.\

Kai Ryssdal

Sorry this just keeps getting worse.

Kimberly Adams 

So Jimmy stay away from the well, you might suffocate from the CO2.

Nicholas Kusnetz 

Well, so I mentioned that this has been used. And there’s an example in Wyoming where a company was injecting CO2 into an old oil field. And they hadn’t properly mapped all the old wells that were there and there was an old oil well, right next to a school, the CO2 started leaking out. And it was reaching dangerous levels. No one was hurt in that case, but they had to evacuate the school and the kids had to go somewhere else for for months at a time while they fix the problem. I mean, another issue is not with injection, but with piping, right? So this, the CO2 has to get to the places where it’s going to be put underground. And here’s where there has been a more dangerous incident a couple of years ago, there was a CO2 pipeline that ruptured and leaked, and ended up sending dozens of people to the hospital, because it was yet displacing the air.

Kai Ryssdal 

Wow. Okay, so, first of all, I’m so glad we’re doing this episode, because I’d always figured the carbon capture and the rest was was all sort of benign, but clearly not. But. So we’re trading planetary existential threat for localized sort of individual human threat. So so we’re gonna figure out how to price tag that at the policy level, I suppose. Kimberly said in the introduction, the Biden administration wants to spend a billion dollars. Is a billion dollars enough?

Nicholas Kusnetz 

Well, it’s actually a lot more than a billion, the infrastructure bill has put about 12 billion and actually a little bit more than that, towards carbon capture and removal. But then the Inflation Reduction Act, which was the Biden administration’s, signature climate bill from last year, that increased the value of a tax credit, which is it’s a production tax credit. So there’s no way to know exactly how much it’s going to be because it depends on how much people use it, how much carbon dioxide they capture. But that could be worth many billions of dollars, potentially tens, or even more, depending on on how much it’s done. And whether it’s enough. I mean, I think that it’s a very expensive technology, and its supporters have said that what’s been missing is meaningful government support. I think certainly the government has now started to give that meaningful support. But no one thinks that the public spending on its own is enough. So it really has to spur the private sector to spend a lot more money than that.

Kimberly Adams 

I’ve also seen, you know, on social media and things, people who use carbon capture and turn it into like physical goods like bricks or, you know, plastics or something like that. Is that a real part of the system? Or is that just too niche to matter?

Nicholas Kusnetz 

It is niche, certainly for now. I mean, I think one of the big appeals there is, you know, there is this question of economics, it’s expensive to do this. There’s no price on carbon. So there’s no price to pay for polluting currently. And so why would a company spend the money to do this, right. And if you can create some kind of a product that helps with the economics, there are some companies looking into using carbon dioxide and injecting it into cement, for example, or producing like physical bricks that you could use to build. But I think nothing in that space is really at the scale that would be needed or really close. I think, when it, when people talk about doing this at a real meaningful scale, it’s mostly about storing underground.

Kai Ryssdal 

Do you suppose it’s possible that, and look, fossil fuels are going to be here for a very long time. That’s just the way the global economy is set up, as much as we all want to try EVs and all the rest of this stuff. But is it possible that what’s happening here is an investment in carbon capture by not necessarily governments but others, to let us stay reliant on fossil fuels longer?

Nicholas Kusnetz 

That’s the one of the big fears right? There, carbon capture can be used for a lot of different things. And some of those don’t directly relate to fossil fuels, like producing cement, for example, releases a lot of CO2. And so a lot of people think it can be used there. But oil and gas companies right now are saying that we can make clean hydrogen, which could be a kind of clean burning fuel. And do it using carbon capture, to take away the emissions that are currently released when you make the fuel with natural gas. So that’s one example. There are also a lot of utilities looking to put carbon capture on coal or gas burning power plants. So I mean, the promise is that this can be another tool, right when we need kind of every tool we can get. But I think the risk is that the technology hasn’t been used at at a meaningful scale, yet, it hasn’t been tested at that level. And if it, if we do end up counting on it, we do put it onto that coal plant or gas plant or a hydrogen plant, and it doesn’t work as planned. Then what happens, you know, we end up polluting more than we might otherwise if we just shut that down instead.

Kimberly Adams 

So then, where do you think it fits in the mix in terms of how much we should be putting into carbon capture as a strategy versus some of the other climate solutions?

Nicholas Kusnetz 

Well, there’s a there’s a huge debate over this right now, right? And the short answer is no one really knows. I think there are a lot of people who think that, who argue that we, we could need this for certain niche sectors, like I mentioned, again, cement perhaps, or for steel, you know, there are a lot of a lot of things that we’re ready to do at this point to replace coal and gas power plants with wind and solar, for example. Some others, we don’t really have good solutions for yet. Or if we have them, they’re extremely expensive. And that’s a lot of like heavy industry, making iron and steel cement. And so the hope is that maybe carbon capture can play a role there. But it really isn’t maybe at this point. So I think that some of the best arguments for it are to pursue research and kind of models of how this could look, if it does work out, and if we do need it. But the fear is that we will overspend and essentially direct new subsidies to the fossil fuel industry, to technology that might not work out.

Kimberly Adams

Lots of food for thought.

Nicholas Kusnetz 

Yeah, it’s a bit of a doozy.

Kimberly Adams 

It is it is. Thank you, Nick Kusnetz. He’s a staff writer at Inside Climate News. Definitely given us a lot to think about. Thank you.

Nicholas Kusnetz 

Alright. Thanks for having me.

Kai Ryssdal 

Nick thanks a bunch. Yeah, I had no idea. I had no idea. I thought it was just kind of put it in the ground, everything’s fine. But no, earthquakes and asphyxiation. And look, I understand you got it. You got to you got to do everything you can. But oh, my.

Kimberly Adams 

You know, I feel like this is becoming a trend with a series in that there’s this thing, the solution that on its face, it’s like, oh, great idea that will, here’s another tool in the toolbox. And it’s like, yeah, it’s a tool in the toolbox that also has like a spike on it so don’t hold it too tight. You know?

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, totally. Totally.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah. And so it’s, but at the same time, you know, the alternatives are worse. And so this is a complicated topic, and no easy answers. But it’s I’m glad that there is so much research happening in all of these different fields. And maybe we’ll be able to find ways to make these solutions a little less risky, down the road with this investment.

Kai Ryssdal 

Here’s hoping. Here’s hoping.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah, anyway. What do you all think about carbon capture based on what you heard today? Or what you might know yourself? Do you think it should be a climate solution you can let us know at 508-827-6278, also known as 508-U-B-SMART. And also, if you want to hear more about climate solutions, please make sure to check out How We Survive, which is Marketplace’s climate podcast, hosted by Amy Scott. And this latest season is all about water in the West. It’s super interesting. So you should definitely have a listen. We will be right back.

Kai Ryssdal 

Alright, we’re back news, Kimberly Adams, you get to go first.

Kimberly Adams 

So two different but related stories. So the there was an update today about the SAG-AFTRA strikes that are ongoing even though the movie theater organization said they’d given their best and final offer SAG-AFTRA still kind of like no thanks. And according to reporting at the verge, this is because of the desire of studios to own performers digitally scanned likeness in perpetuity. I’m reading here, actually, in The Verge that’s comes via the Hollywood Reporter, the AMTPTP’s newest contract would allow studios to secure the digitally scanned likenesses of all Schedule F performers, members of the guild making more than the minimum $32,000 per episode rate for a series or more than $60,000 for feature films. So these are basically the big stars, right? This idea that you, they would be able to take your image and your likeness and scan it in and use it. And some of the concerns here are that, you know, the studios could then use AI to, you know, recreate dead performers without checking in with their estates or, you know, do whatever else. And so this is still a sticking point in these negotiations, which, you know, this tied to another story I saw today in Reuters about OpenAI, creating the opportunity I’m just gonna read here, OpenAI unveiled a marketplace on Monday that enables users to access personalized artificial intelligence apps for tasks like teaching math, or designing stickers, signaling and ambition to expand its consumer business. And, you know, these, these, these, it would go into a store, which will launch later this month where people can share their own GPTs and earn money based on the number of users. It’s a renewed effort from the company’s failed attempt to build an ecosystem of ChatGPT plugins earlier this year. And we said this months ago, and lots of people did, but just how pervasive generative AI is going to become in society so quickly, right? And SAG-AFTRA is clearly seeing the writing on the wall of the direction that we’re heading. And, once again, disclaimer, that Marketplace, you know, editorial staff is in a different section of SAG-AFTRA. But, you know, seeing that this is coming, and then just looking at the consumer rollout, they want to have OpenAI, OpenAI trying to get more people using AI on a day to day basis for more things. It’s going to be so fascinating to look back a year from now at this these past few months. And how much our world changed right underneath us.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, forget five or 10 years. But a year right.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah, just a year. My last little bit of news is just to check in, which is that another story from Reuters that the Republic, Republicans are expecting no votes on a stop gap, continuing resolution. This week, as a shutdown looms, we are 10 days away from a potential additional partial government shutdown, even though lots of sections of the government have found ways to maneuver around the worst of this. But it’s a shorter week, we have Veterans Day observance on Friday, and then they’re just not doing that much as well. So next week is going to be interesting.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, I think that the they’re not doing much part is more important than the federal holiday.

Kimberly Adams 

Yes, for sure. For sure.

Kai Ryssdal 

So one of my definitions for news is stuff that makes you go “huh.” And I was scanning Bloomberg this morning, and I saw this item and I said, “huh.” The Bloomberg Billionaires Index is out. Honestly, this is not like breaking news, it’s not relevant news. It’s just kind of like news. Donald Trump’s net worth has increased $500 million since he left office.

Kimberly Adams

Of course it has.

Kai Ryssdal

I looked at it and I was like “huh.” Tturns out that his holdings in the state of Florida, Mar a Lago and the Doral Country Club, a growth in the value of those is what has driven his personal value higher, although probably not as high as he’s talking about in his trial in New York over the valuation of his properties, just pointing that out. That’s it.

Kimberly Adams 

That’s what we got. I can’t wait until at some point, we get the real data about how much of the money going to his campaign is just being straight, funneled into his legal expenses and other things related to not the presidential campaign, because he could fairly argue that his legal defense is part of his campaign, because he’s using it to amplify his campaign. And, you know, his argument the whole time is that a lot of these legal cases are to keep him from office. And I have to imagine at some point, there’s if there hasn’t been already, there’s going to be a lawsuit or some sort of investigation about how this money is going from donors into his legal defense.

Kai Ryssdal 

Oh yeah, guaranteed lawsuit. Guaranteed lawsuit.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah. All right, especially if he loses. Yes. Yes.

Mailbag

Hi Kai and Kimberly. This is Godfrey from San Francisco. Jessie from Charleston, South Carolina. And I have a follow up question. It has me thinking and feeling a lot of things.

Kimberly Adams 

So last week, as part of our climate solutions series, we talked about clean hydrogen, and we wanted to hear from listeners who have driven a hydrogen powered car, Andrea in California called in to tell us about it.

Andrea

In 2018, we leased a Honda Clarity. Where I live the nearest fueling station at the time was about 15 miles from home on the drive to work. Refueling was relatively simple. If all went well, it only took about 10 minutes. It wasn’t always perfect. Sometimes stations would be down for service, or out of fuel or just powered down. In the end, we returned the car in 2021 after three years and 45,000 miles thinking it was an interesting experiment.

Kai Ryssdal 

That’s totally fascinating. First of all, good for them for trying. And yeah, I totally get why you give it back because it can be frustrating, but that’s cool. That’s good to know. Yeah. Super interesting. One, one more. I was talking the other day about my disdain for hotel showers. That thing where they only do like half a door first of all, but also the ones where you have to stick your hand through what will be the water flow to turn on the water and it’s inevitably cold. Come on you guys. And we got this.

Michael

This is Michael from Grand Rapids, Michigan. As a traveling sales guy in the contract furniture space. I’ve been in hotels all over this country and cannot stand the design of so many of these hotels. So much so that during COVID, like everyone when I renovated my house and made a half bath in my basement a full bath, I constructed the shower with the showerhead on the south wall and hot cold knob on that north east corner so you’re not gonna get cold water when you turn it on.

Kai Ryssdal 

It’s not hard. It’s not hard.

Kimberly Adams

Good for you Michael. Well done sir. Good for you .

Kai Ryssdal

Whoever’s at Marriott and Hyatt and Holiday Inn and all of them come on, man.

Kimberly Adams 

Do better. Yes. All right. Before we go, we’re gonna leave you with this week’s answer to the Make Me Smart question, which is, what is something you thought you knew, but later found out you were wrong about?

Logan

Hi, Kai and Kimberly, this is Logan, memoing in from Savoy Illinois, I used to think that science would be able to provide a solution to climate change. After looking at the numbers, I still believe that science will play an important role in addressing the climate crisis. But for every scientific solution, there are myriad cultural or social solutions that provide equivalent or greater benefit. I’m happy to play a scientific role in addressing the climate crisis. But I have a newfound respect for activists and individuals that currently are and have been fighting for the necessary social and infrastructure changes that will push us towards a truly sustainable future.

Kimberly Adams 

Such a good point that reminds me of the other day when we were talking and I had that clip from a guy who said that we needed to change our clothes shopping habits from buying 55 pieces a year to five pieces a year. You know, things like the length of our showers and just small, and yes it’s not on us individually to fix these problems. But you know, it is it does take so much and everything and all the things.

Kai Ryssdal 

All the things and just like there’s no one scientific solution as we saw with carbon capture, hello earthquakes, asphyxiation, right? There is it’s going there is no single solution, broadly speaking, right. It’s gonna take everybody doing everything, you know. Anyway, yeah. Yeah. We want to hear your answer that Make Me Smart question. Our number is 508-827-6278. 508-U-B-SMART.

Kimberly Adams 

Make Me Smart is produced by Courtney Bergsieker. Ellen Rolfes writes our newsletter. Today’s program was engineered by Juan Carlos Torodo with mixing by Jay Seibold. Our intern is Niloufar Shahbandi.

Kai Ryssdal 

Ben Tolliday and Daniel Ramirez composed our theme music. Our senior producer is Marissa Cabrera. Bridget Bodnar is the director of podcasts, she decided to come in today she’s sitting there on the other side of the glass kind of shrinking down so I can’t see her. Francesca Levy is the executive director of digital. Marketplace Vice President and General Manager is Neal Scarbrough.