Why the definition of “employer” really matters

Kai Ryssdal 

it’s not, oh it is 3:30. Jayk yo, man, whatever. Let’s hope Jayk is there. Shall we? Jayk is there. Hey everybody I’m Kai Ryssdal, welcome back to Make Me Smart, where we make today make sense. It is 27 October Friday.

Kimberly Adams 

It’s so weird to have one of these when there’s a speaker of the house. Anyway, I’m Kimberly Adams, thank you for joining us on this podcast and our YouTube live stream. It’s Friday and that means it’s time for economics on tap, our weekly happy hour episode where we have all the jokes.

Kai Ryssdal 

That was a good one. That was a really, really good on. A little Washington humor right there. Usually on a Friday, we’ll do some news, we’ll take a break, and then we’ll do half full, half empty, empty rather. I think Drew’s around this week. And we will also quickly peruse the beverage charts in the Discord and the YouTube chat and all that jazz. What what do you have going on Ms. Adams?

Kimberly Adams 

Oh, I outsourced my my drink this week because I had this random collection of booze in my house. And so I did what that bartender who I ran into a while back did and I plugged all of my ingredients into ChatGPT and I said give me a Halloween themed cocktail using any or a combination of these ingredients. And I got a bloody bourbon sour, which has bourbon, Campari, Cointreau, lemon juice, simple syrup, and then an orange twist or a cherry for garnish and I made it and it is bloody looking for sure. I’m about to try it because this is a thing. You know, ChatGPT hallucinates and it makes stuff up. So this may not be good.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, it sounds okay. It seems, it seems like there’s a lot going on in there.

Kimberly Adams 

It’s good. It’s good. It’s not like the best cocktail I’ve ever had. But it’s drinkable. It’s good. Okay.

Kai Ryssdal 

That’s a plus, that’s a plus, good for you. I’m having I’m having a cup of coffee in my mug because my wife and I have a dinner date this evening with another couple and it doesn’t start until 7:30 tonight. And if I start drinking now I’m just never gonna make it. I’m just never gonna make it.

Kimberly Adams

I was about to say your day starts at what? Like five or three?

Kai Ryssdal 

4:40 in the morning.

Kimberly Adams 

4:40 in the morning. You are a good man. Good man. All right, let’s see what everybody else is drinking?

Kai Ryssdal 

Yes. Let’s see. There’s snow in the forecast in the Twin Cities, 36 degrees Jesus.

Kimberly Adams 

It’s like almost 80 here. I don’t know if y’all can see I’m sweating. It’s so hot in DC. Kyle from Illinois in the Discord is drinking one of my last Spotted Cows from Wisconsin camping trip a few weeks ago. So it’s called New Glarus Brewing Company and it’s a Spotted Cow beer is sorry you know I don’t know beer.

Kai Ryssdal 

Nice, we’ve got some prosecco going on, we got let’s see, oh there’s snow in Denver this weekend. Man it’s snowing everywhere.

Kimberly Adams 

Steve in New Jersey is drinking Duck, Duck Juice an IPA from Zero Gravity Craft, Zero Gravity Craft Brewery in Vermont. Not as hazy as the name sounds.

Kai Ryssdal 

Oh, interesting. It well, you hear, alright, so a little beer insider, you hear juicy and you think hazy in the title and that’s you know, that’s what it is?

Kimberly Adams

Well, you saw the IPA that I had.

Kai Ryssdal

I did, so let’s just break the fourth wall here a little bit. So Kimberly, maybe you talked about this while I was gone. Kimberly put something in the Make Me Smart Slack of her holding in one hand a can of I think it was Voodoo Ranger IPA. And she says IPA in the wild. What she didn’t mention was what was in her other hand, which was throwing knives. And she was in one of those places clearly where you can go and throw axes and knives and all this jazz. And I think you should tell people how you did on the throwing of the knives thing. That’s the important part.

Kimberly Adams 

I did decent enough. Apparently, I was very accurate with my aim, even if the knife didn’t always stick in the target. But I should also acknowledge I had a little bit of an advantage because during when I was living in Egypt, and they like locked down the country during all the protests and everybody was stuck in their houses for a long time. I set up a throwing knife target in my apartment and I killed time by throwing knives at some old cardboard from a refrigerator box and you know, it was a good stress relief. So that’s.

Kai Ryssdal 

Do you remember that uh of course, you remember that time we were out at UCLA and I was interviewing former Treasury Secretary Mnuchin. And the crowd was was rambunctious, shall we say, and there were some protests and you were like, You were on me like green on beans, baby. You were like clearing the path for me to get out there. And I’m like I feel safe, Kimberly’s here. It was pretty funny, it was pretty funny.

Kimberly Adams 

Says, the military guy. I love it.

Kai Ryssdal 

You know, it was all good. It was all good. Alright, anyway, go ahead. You go ahead.

Kimberly Adams 

So let’s get to the news or unless we missed anybody else’s drinks do we get? Okay. Okay. We did so All right. So this actually I missed earlier in the week. And it’s actually a really big deal. The National Labor Relations Board came out with its final rule on the joint employer rule. Now this came up a while but under the Trump administration, because under the Trump administration, the NLRB changed the rule about who could be considered an employer or tweaked it a bit to say that unless you were like directly supervising somebody, you were not, and you were not an employer. And you were not bound by the rules of an employer in terms of labor law in terms of, you know, who’s responsible if somebody sues you in terms of staffing and all these other requirements that that kick in when you are labeled an employer. And the Trump administration said you’re not an employer, unless you like are directly in charge of somebody why this matters is if you’re a fran-, say you work at a any kind of franchise, McDonald’s or Taco Bell, or whatever, and you have a problem. You can’t sue Taco Bell or McDonald’s, you have to sue your direct franchise owner with no liability for McDonald’s or Taco Bell, even if it’s some sort of systemic problem, right, because they’re not your employer. And this caused a lot of problems. And so the Biden administration NLRB has updated this rule to change. Changes I’m going to read from CBS News here, which describes it as the “final rule announced Thursday by the National Labor Relations Board would classify companies such as franchisees and contractors, as an employer if they control basic conditions of work, such as pay scheduling and supervision in a stroke that would make fast food giants, retailers, technology players, staffing firms, and many other businesses that hire workers on a contract basis, more accountable for violations of labor law.” So this is according to one expert to talk to CBS MoneyWatch obviously, the industry is in an uproar. The regulation is opposed by the US Chamber of Commerce, the national Retail Association, the American Hotel & Lodging Association president is against it, I saw an article from FreightWaves, which is about trucking, and they’re worried that the rule is going to trigger higher trucking costs, because a lot of truckers are independent contractors, and things like that. So this is going to be probably subject to quite a few legal challenges. But it’s really interesting, and if you know somebody who works for a fast food or any kind of franchise, and this, this affects them directly. So that came out when there’s just too much news.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, no, totally. One of the reasons is really interesting, is that when was the last time you heard fast food workers and tech workers lumped into the same employment category or same employment, you know, story? Right? It’s, it’s really interesting. And so as you said, there is a different set of vested interests at play here with those companies, right, the tech companies versus the fast food franchises and all that. And it’s gonna be curious to see how this plays out. But but it’s gonna be in court for a long time.

Kimberly Adams 

I mean because it looks like this would apply to Uber drivers and things, potentially, which was a huge, because I’m looking at the FreightWaves article “under the new standard, a company may be considered a joint employer with another company if the two share one or more of the employees, essential terms and conditions of employment, which are now defined exclusively as,” so they have to hit one or one or more of these wages, benefits and other compensation, hours of work and scheduling assignment of duties to be performed supervision of the performance duties, work rules and directions of governance, performance, tenure of employment, including hiring and discharge and working conditions related to safety and health. That scoops up a lot, a lot of these big companies. Yeah, anyway, yeah, no lots of litigation to come.

Kai Ryssdal 

It totally is. Alright, so I just want to follow up on a thing that you mentioned the other day, and we have new data now out on in response to a question from me. You weren’t just geeking out all by yourself. We have new data out on Congress, and its relative popularity. It’s a report out today it’s data out today from Gallup, which of course is the surveying institution. So here’s what they say I had asked you about popularity of Congress and you gave a number in the mid-teens somewhere. Right? So according to,

Kimberly Adams 

Because we hadn’t gotten the latest Gallup report.

Kai Ryssdal 

Right, exactly. So according to the latest Gallup survey, Congress and congressional approval breaks down this way. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job? Independents 19% approve. Democrats 10% approve. Republicans only 8% approve. And that has dropped four percentage points in the last month. So the kerfuffle, shall we say over the Republicans choosing a speaker has damaged the institution so, so gravely, that it is now among the majority party in the House, its party members think the base actually thinks, only 8% approve of the way Congress is doing their job. So I thought that was really interesting and really distressing. Here’s one more data point and then another subjective thing. So and I’m just going to read this from Gallup, “roughly equal proportions of Republicans 22% and Democrats 20% named the government as the most important issue facing the country.” Okay, think about that for a second. Okay. In September, the three groups, independents, Democrats and Republicans were about equally likely to cite the government as the nation’s top problem. 18% of Republicans, 70% of independents, and 19% of Democrats. So a fifth of the country across the political spectrum, thinks that the government is the biggest problem we have now, they probably think it for completely different reasons. Republicans think it’s a problem probably because it’s too big Democrats think it’s a problem because it’s not doing enough. And Independents who knows. But the fact that we think collectively 20% of us that the government’s problem is really not good. It’s just no good.

Kimberly Adams 

I wonder what that’s gonna do to voter turnout? Like, I don’t know, their apathy is always such a issue when it comes to elections. And if everybody thinks government is the problem, how many people are just going to stay home in what’s going to be a crucial election?

Kai Ryssdal 

You bet, you bet. Totally, totally. And I’ll tell you, this is a sample size of two, actually three, I’ve got three kids now who can vote and they’re just not inspired by anything that’s going on in the American political system right now. And It troubles me deeply as as a guy who values civic obligations and public service, national service, all that jazz, right listeners to this podcast, know my deal. I find that really hard to handle.

Kimberly Adams 

I don’t know, I I’m I can be a rather petty person. I feel like it’s a skill I’ve cultivated over time and I value it and cherish it. And I really appreciate the pettiness of Gen Z. And I think that a lot of them will be driven to vote by pure just like spite and pettiness. And so I think that will kind of boost voter turnout a bit.

Kai Ryssdal 

Okay, but what do you think spite and pettiness is going to do for their vote? What what how’s that? How’s that gonna play out?

Kimberly Adams 

You make somebody angry enough, and they will hold on to that anger and then deploy it in mass. And I wouldn’t be surprised if we see like Gen Z coming out in mass on very targeted issues without talking about it a lot, at least in a way that the old hear it.

Kai Ryssdal 

Right. And so what we will have is negative voting right? Voting against somebody, as opposed to voting for somebody because of their policies and what happened.

Kimberly Adams 

Exactly, yeah. That’s my suspicion.

Kai Ryssdal 

I buy that. I totally buy that. Okay, so that’s the news. We’ll do a break, pay some bills, and then we come back, Drew Jostad half full, half empty, you know how it goes.

Kimberly Adams 

Okay, welcome back, we are now going to play our wonderful game half full, half empty, which is hosted by our very wonderful Drew Jostad. Drew, take it away.

Drew Jostad 

All right, are you half full or half empty on over employment?

Kimberly Adams 

This was the story about people carrying multiple jobs at once because…

Kai Ryssdal 

Oh right, right sorry. It aired on my show, but that’s okay. I don’t remember it. Nevermind, it was Kristin Schwab. It was a great piece, nevermind.

Kimberly Adams 

It was a busy news week. So this is basically because of remote work, especially a lot of people are able to carry on multiple gigs at once, either because they can manage their time differently, or they’re taking on additional jobs on the weekend. And I am half empty on over employment just because I think it’s going to trigger burnout. And I’m glad people are making as much money as they can. And I think it ties into the sort of quiet quitting do only like the what you have to do for your job, which then leaves you more capacity to do other things. But I also worry about people not having any downtime. And, you know, I know several people, myself included, juggle multiple responsibilities. And it can be hard, it can be hard, so I’m going to be half empty on that. But I also wonder if the over employment trend is, you know, you were talking on your other show today about how consumers keep spending, despite inflation, despite everything else. I wonder if this over-employment trend is helping boost some of that spending. Because people rather than lower their standards of living or pull back on spending. They’re just working more to continue paying for the lives that they’re used to living.

Kai Ryssdal

Right. I think that’s exactly right. And I agree with everything you said. And it’s entirely possible that once price levels, look, they’re never going back to where they were. That’s not the way the economy works. But once they normalize a bit, maybe the phenomenon of people having to be over employed kind of goes away.

Kimberly Adams 

I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah. So I’m guessing you’re half empty also.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, sorry. Yes. Yes. I have to actually say the words All right.

Drew Jostad 

All right, next story comes from The Economist by way of the Make Me Smart newsletter. They have a database of film runtimes going back to 1930. The average movie is 24% longer, and the most popular movies are almost 50% longer. Are you half full or half empty.

Kai Ryssdal 

Can I go first? Can I go first? Can I go first?

Kimberly Adams

Go for it. Go for it. Go for it.

Kai Ryssdal

I’m so empty on movie bloat. It’s ridiculous. The idea that Martin Scorses, genius though he is, an incredible, I know I’m ranting, incredible story though it is, “The Killers of the Flower Moon Right?” The idea that he needs three hours and 26 minutes to tell that story. You have got to be kidding me now. I know that in 1939, “Gone with the Wind” ran for hours and they took an intermission, but let’s let that be the outlier, please. Movies today are bloated especially superhero movies and all the Marvel Universe and whatnot. Give me a good 90 minute, two hour movie and I’m happy. Okay, I’m done.

Kimberly Adams 

That’s okay. So, Noel, King who used to work at Marketplace, but is now over at Today Explained. She messaged me. She was like, “Hey, do you want to go see “Killers of the Flower Moon” with me? And I was like, uhhhh.

Kai Ryssdal 

I know my wife wants to go see it and I’m like, sweetie, really?

Kimberly Adams 

It’s it looks like a great movie. It’s an important story, but it’s really long. And also, it’s going to be really depressing. And I found that the depressing movies. I want to watch at home where I can cry in peace. You know, like, let me be depressed and morose on my couch in my hoodie, footie pajama, you know, like, let me live my life with wine. And, you know, I’ve been like, I went to see, oh, my gosh, how did I, “Oppenheimer,” which was long, and we were strategizing, like, you know, what are we going to drink when we’re in the theater? You got to do the bathroom break before. Like, you know, how are you going to manage your time and you know, where’s the bathroom? So you know where it is, but as soon as you get out, and it’s like, come on, that’s not fun anymore. Enjoy the movie, but come on. So I’m gonna go all the way empty like you. Because some. As somebody who tends to write long in my features. I know how hard it is to cut and kill your your children as you’re editing. So I feel for them but I don’t want to sit through it.

Kai Ryssdal 

So to be to be clear, my rant here is movie agnostic, “Oppenheimer,” I loved it’s right in my sweet spot of the history that I follow. And I read the book and it’s amazing and holy cow what it what incredible history and all of that jazz. The movie was too damn long. You could 40 minutes easy, easy.

Kimberly Adams 

You could make a political party, like the rent is too damn high party. This movie is too dang long.

Kai Ryssdal

That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.

Kimberly Adams

Now we get the explicit rating thing. Sorry, Bridget.

Kai Ryssdal

Sorry Bridget, can’t believe damn is explicit. That’s ridiculous.

Drew Jostad 

Half full or half empty on strategic retention, aka labor hoarding?

Kai Ryssdal 

Oh, so this was a story that aired on my show yesterday about what’s happening in the labor market, which is to say a little bit, Elizabeth Trovall did it, I think, which is to say that part of the reason part of what’s happening as the labor market is so tight is that employers are not really willing to let people go as easily as they used to be, because they’re afraid of not being able to hire people and an unemployment with an unemployment rate of 3.8%. I’m not sure that’s great. But I guess I’m half full because it keeps people employed. I don’t really know, Kimberly.

Kimberly Adams 

I’m gonna go half full. Only because employees had so little power relative to employers for so long, for so long. I think that and you did this story, you did the interview the other day about CEO pay, and how that’s changed over time. And you know, just how little relative power and compensation that employees had relative to employers. So I feel like this employee hoarding, golden handcuffs, as some people call them, is a good thing in on the individual basis for employees. I don’t know that it’s great for the overall economy. Because people job hopping and moving into different skill sets in different jobs is, you know, what often creates innovation and growth. And I’m thinking about somebody sitting in a job where they’re paid very well well enough to be comfortable and not be looking around that then doesn’t take that job that puts them in the position to do something that’s going to create some meaningful growth or or, you know, invent something that’s going to be really helpful to people. So I’m gonna say a caveatededness? With caveatedness? Caveated half full.

Kai Ryssdal

Fair enough. Fair enough.

Drew Jostad 

Half full or half empty on businesses with SEO bait names?

Kimberly Adams 

This story was so funny. Okay, so this was a great story about a restaurant that basically I think it was a Thai Food Near Me or yes, okay. So they made the name of the restaurant Thai Food Near Me, which, you know, whenever you’re searching on Google, especially on Google Maps or something, and you’re looking for restaurants near me or such and such near me or Thai food near me, you know, whatever is close. says to you will show up. But since they name their company type their restaurant Thai Food Near Me, they always show up in the search results, even if they’re not close, and I think it’s a brilliant, I love you know this, this ties directly into all these fears of AI and you know computers taking over the world and everything. There will always be people who find a way to leverage technology to their benefit and work with it. And those will be the winners and I love for them to win. So half full.

Kai Ryssdal 

Half full, I think it’s great. It’s super clever now. It’s great and super clever once. Let’s not everybody do it.

Kimberly Adams 

Right? No, not everybody. Like they did it. We got the idea. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Don’t be tacky with it. Exactly. Is this the poll? Correct. Last one up. All right. So people who are watching on YouTube and able to engage in the YouTube live stream chat, this is their chance to weigh in on half full half empty with your vote whether you’re half full or half empty on the topic that you will now present to us Kai and I will vamp for a bit maybe tip our hat hat a tiny bit. Hopefully not. But we’ll try not to, go ahead.

Drew Jostad 

All right, according to a survey from the National Retail Federation Halloween costume spending is expected to be up 14% this year to $4.1 billion. Are you half full or half empty on America’s Halloween costume obsession?

Kimberly Adams 

Go ahead, Kai. I know you have feelings.

Kai Ryssdal 

I have absolutely nothing to say I’ve my silence will speak for me. Is that bad? Is that bad?

Kimberly Adams 

What would it what would a Kai Ryssdal costume look like? If someone were to design it.

Kai Ryssdal 

I don’t. So Tony Wagner if he’s listening to this, we’ll surely put in the chat. That thing that he rehabbed on social the other day about, God what was it? It was some like costumey thing of man talking on man talking on radio doing business news or something? And it was Tony was like Kai? It was like a kid in a suit and a tie. It was, it was very dorky. I got nothing. I got nothing. I got nothing. You?

Kimberly Adams 

Let’s see. What would a Kimberly Adams costume look like? Yeah, I think at this point, it’s gonna have knives since you just put all that out there.

Kai Ryssdal 

At this point. Okay, well, we got that squared away. Thank you very much.

Kimberly Adams 

Knives, cherry blossoms, cocktails. Actually, this year, I have spent $0 On Halloween costumes because I have enough residual costuming from years prior to where I had multiple options. So on Saturday, I’m gonna go I’m probably going to wear like one costume that’s a little bit lower key and easier to put on and on Halloween itself for that Halloween party, including maybe a Make Me Smart party. In that party, I’ll probably have a more elaborate costume. And then, Kai’s face he’s like, What? What? I don’t know. It’s radio. Nobody will see. Nobody will know. Nobody will know. Nobody will know if we’re wearing costumes.

Kai Ryssdal 

That’s true.

Kimberly Adams 

But did spend money on today. My sister wants to take holiday photos. So when I go back to St. Louis for Thanksgiving, we’re doing I know right? We’re doing the Polar Express experience, I guess, which is a train thing for, so you know that movie The Polar Express with the books?

Kai Ryssdal 

Well, it was yeah, it was a kids book first, right? Yeah, great kids book, terrible movie.

Kimberly Adams 

And I didn’t see the movie. But anyway, they have like experiences that they do. And so my sister has decided that we should all family, and I think there will be many of us, wear pajamas on this. Matching pajamas. And some have, some like the kids and I think some of the guys are gonna be wearing like hoodie, footie Christmas pajamas, those who choose to engage, whereas she decided that for us, we should have like cute like valore pajamas that are and then she wants us to wear like hats. And you know, I love a good hat. You know, I love a hat. And so today, we were both chatting about like the fascinators that we’re gonna get. And we both bought these elaborate fascinators that are like Christmas Eve with candy canes and ornaments on them. And it’s gonna be epic. And you will probably see it at some point on a live stream during the holiday season. And so yeah, I spent money on that kind of costuming, but not Halloween this year. And I think that’s enough vamping. Let’s close the poll. We have 202 votes. All right. Matthew Carol, his daughter, loves The Polar Express. I like it. All right. Let’s see. I’m gonna okay, so America’s Halloween costume obsession. Oh, y’all are no fun.

Kai Ryssdal 

I love you enthusiasm. Or, or or, the people are with me on this one. Sorry. Just kidding. Not really.

Kimberly Adams 

Y’all are no fun. Boo.

Kai Ryssdal

Read it and weep. Read it and weep.

Kimberly Adams 

Half empty 62%, half full 37% with 202 votes. Y’all are no fun. No fun at all.

Kai Ryssdal

Boom

Kimberly Adams

Is that it?

Kai Ryssdal 

That’s it. That is it. Jayk hit that bottom sting and we’ll hit it.

Kimberly Adams

Help us, help us. Get me out of here. Get me out of here.

Kai Ryssdal

Jayk’s wondering out into the lounger, and going what’s going on with this podcast? We are done. That is it for us for today. If you’ve got a question or comment you want to share with us, you know how to do it. Voicemail is 508-U-B-SMART. Email us at makemesmart@marketplace.org.

Kimberly Adams 

Yes. And so if you do want to hear more of us, going back and forth about random things or trivia, trivia, save the date because our Make Me Smart virtual trivia night is going to happen on Thursday, November the 9th starting at 7pm Eastern Time, and on the West Coast and 4pm Pacific on the West Coast. Yes, I’ve never gonna forgive you for that. Anyway, if you’re an investor, a Marketplace investor, check your inbox, the invitation should have arrived on Thursday. If you’re not yet an investor and you can give us a donation and we’d really appreciate it, a $5 or more that will make you an investor. You know, we’d love to have everybody there. You know, investors past and present as well as new investors and all the things anyway, go to marketplace.org/gift smart and you’ll find a link in our show notes. If you want to encourage our service journalism, we would really appreciate it and in your donation confirmation email, there will be a link to register for the event. I have to say trivia last time was really fun, people got into it. We had teams, it was it was a great time. So we hope you’ll join us.

Kai Ryssdal 

Bridget will be in charge I think, I think that’s the plan. Cause I’m definitely not.

Kimberly Adams 

After she yells at us for our E rating today.

Kai Ryssdal 

Make Me Smart is produced by Courtney Bergsieker. Today’s episode was engineered by Jayk Cherry. Our intern is Niloufar Shahbandi.

Kimberly Adams 

Our team behind our Friday Games Emily Macune and Antoinette Brock who’s saving me on Tik Tok these days. Marissa Cabrera is our senior producer. Bridget Bodnar is the director of podcasts and Francesca Levy is the executive director of Digital and on demand. And yes as I said Marketplace is on Tik Tok now we’re making videos, we’re doing things it’s gonna be epic, even though it’s gonna be a wreck.

Kai Ryssdal

What could possibly go wrong?

Kimberly Adams

What could possibly go wrong?

Kai Ryssdal

My lordy be.