This is Uncomfortable May 18, 2023 Transcript

 

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Reema Khrais

Hey everyone! This is the second part of a two-part story. You don’t need to hear the first episode to understand this one, but I definitely recommend checking it out. It’s called “The Price of Eggs” and dropped the same day as this one. And just as a warning, this story contains mentions of grooming and sexual abuse, so take care while listening 

 

—-

 

After I interview someone on this show, typically our conversation lingers in my brain for a while, but with this episode, I found myself practically every day thinking about it. That’s because it’s both a story you’d never expect, but also one that’s painfully common. 

 

When Quinn Topham opened up to me about their story, they told me that it started with a secret, one they thought would crumble their world if friends and family ever knew…

 

Quinn Topham: Like if knew about all of those lies, they would, they would not love me anymore. t’s, I, I don’t know what’ll be left for me on the other side of that.

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn’s story is about the lasting impacts of sexual abuse, how trauma can rear its head in the most unexpected ways.

 

For this episode, we’re gonna focus on the financial and career repercussions…and how all of that would eventually lead Quinn down an astonishing path. Cause for as difficult as Quinn’s story is, they also ended up in a place that feels kind of miraculous.

 

When I asked Quinn what they were like as a teenager, I had an easy time imagining them, mostly because I could relate. Quinn identified as a marching band nerd, which…same. They were outgoing, earnest, a bit sheltered. 

 

They grew up in a city outside of Seattle, and their life mostly revolved around church and just being silly with friends…

 

Quinn Topham: We were as Mormons, like, you’re supposed to keep a journal, um, for posterity. I had a friend that we would, if we decided our journals were getting too boring, we would go have journal days together where we would try to go make something happen. 

 

Reema Khrais

Like they’d dress up in these weird costumes and run around town together 

 

Quinn Topham: We had like kind of the masks from Scream and like these cloaks, so we had like four different costume changes 

 

Reema Khrais: Wow this was elaborate!

 

Quinn Topham: Like if you’re not having premarital sex, the kinds of things you do to entertain yourself *laughs*

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn was an overachiever, one of those students who spent an unhealthy amount of time obsessing over their schoolwork. Their dream was to one day become a high school French teacher. 

 

Still, Quinn was worried that a good report card wouldn’t be enough to get them into college. They were the second oldest of five girls, and such a big family, with a modest income, meant going to college wasn’t a guarantee

 

Quinn’s parents weren’t much of a resource, and besides they were busy with the other kids. What Quinn needed was someone who noticed their potential and could help them channel it. And junior year, an English teacher came along who saw something in Quinn.

 

Quinn Topham: He had quite the persona at the school for, um, for being a good teacher, but for being like very strict and demanding and high expectations. I, like a lot of people, felt very intimidated by him

 

Reema Khrais

He was a big deal on campus. He was a former sergeant in his late 30s who kept his private life private and called all of his students by their last names. 

 

He was also the advisor of the school’s National Honors Society and had access to all the students’ grades. Which was why one day he asked to see Quinn after school. 

 

Quinn Topham: I went in and had this quick conversation,

 

Reema Khrais

He told Quinn, you’re a smart student, you’ve got a 4.0, but if you want to get into college, we’ve got to build up your resume…

 

Quinn Topham: How was I gonna take calculated risks was his language to really excel and find myself.  

 

Reema Khrais

It was almost too much for Quinn, who up to that point had felt too shy to even speak up in his class.  

 

Quinn Topham: I felt very flattered by it, very like special. I went and told my best friend immediately, she’s like, you have to write that in your journal like right away! You don’t wanna forget that!

 

Reema Khrais: It was a big deal! 

 

Quinn Topham: yea yea 

 

Reema Khrais

That next year, the teacher began complimenting Quinn and talking to them with a kind of mutual respect a lot of teenagers feel like they don’t often get from adults. And then he started opening up about his personal life. 

 

Quinn Topham: I came into school, just normal school day, and he said like I just found out my wife’s pregnant. Please don’t tell anyone, we’re not announcing it yet.

 

Reema Khrais: What a weird thing to share with a student 

 

Quinn Topham: yeah…right? 

 

Reema Khrais

But for 17-year-old Quinn…this was gold. Remember when you were in high school and you discovered a private detail about a teacher, it kind of blows your mind. For years, students had been desperately piecing together tiny bits of information about him, comparing notes, and now Quinn had intimate details of the man no one knew. 

 

Like any teenager with a secret, Quinn ran home to find someone to tell. 

 

Quinn Topham: I went home and told my parents…I was like, guess what!! Like, haha, I know a secret! And my dad was like, “why did he, why did he tell you that?”

I was like, I’m, why wouldn’t people wanna talk to me, dad? Other adults get that I’m like a really cool intellectual partner. 

 

Reema Khrais

But soon, the teacher would start to test the bounds of their relationship in more alarming ways.

 

Just before Christmas break, a school dance was coming up. Quinn had a date with a boy who wasn’t a member of their church… was nervous about it. One day after school, Quinn was chatting about this date with the teacher…

 

Quinn Topham: I mentioned that I was nervous about, um, my boundaries with this person. and the teacher, uh, was like “That’s really interesting! 

 

Reema Khrais

They’d been sitting together on a couch, and it’s at this point the teacher inched closer to Quinn 

 

Quinn Topham: He was like, “wait, so, so like if I did this…” and he like scooted closer, and he’s like and you didn’t like that? Would you feel like you could tell me?” I was like, no, no, I don’t think so, what I’m telling you is I couldn’t do that. 

 

And he was So if I like did this” and he put his hand on my knee and was like “you didn’t want me to, you couldn’t tell me to stop?” 

 

Reema Khrais

It made Quinn uncomfortable, like Quinn’s body processed it as a violation, but Quinn’s brain didn’t. 

 

Quinn Topham: I leaned into the like, “oh, okay, this, I think this is protective.” Somehow I, I’m sure it’ll make sense, right? And I’m still trusting him like intellectually trusting, like, you, you wouldn’t do anything wrong.

 

Reema Khrais

I should say that this is a really clear example of grooming. Grooming is defined as manipulative behaviors that an abuser uses to gain access to a potential victim, to coerce them to agree to the abuse, and then minimize the risk of being caught. 

 

The teacher was testing Quinn’s physical boundaries in a way that appeared harmless to someone as young as Quinn. He was normalizing this kind of behavior, trying to gain Quinn’s trust.  

 

These moments kept happening. It was confusing for a teenager who’d occupied such a small world up until then. Quinn told me that…like a lot of teens that age… they did feel excited by the idea that someone found them interesting, worthy of spending time with. And Quinn would rationalize things that felt strange. One day at school he kissed Quinn on the cheek, but he’d also kissed other students on the cheek during graduation the year before, so maybe it was fine? 

 

That year, before and after school, Quinn would spend a lot of time with the teacher in his classroom. The excuse was to help Quinn with schoolwork or prepare for college, but they’d spend most of the time just talking. 

 

Even on the weekends, the teacher would ask Quinn to meet up on campus. He also eventually sold Quinn his car to make it easier for them to drive to and from school. 

 

All of this raised a lot of eyebrows, and not just within Quinn’s family… 

 

Quinn Topham: By this point, there’s a lot of rumors going around school about me. I heard from friends that another teacher had like, made a joke about it to her whole class. 

 

Reema Khrais: What…

 

Quinn Topham: My parents had asked me about a few times. People at church were kind of bringing it up in a jokey way. 

 

Reema Khrais

All of the questions and jokes only made Quinn defensive. From their perspective, nothing significant had happened…until one day, something did. 

 

It was the weekend and Quinn and the teacher were alone in his classroom…when he abruptly kissed Quinn on the lips…

 

Quinn Topham: My lip quivered uncontrolled, like he kissed me just on the mouth and then went and sat behind his desk and just had a normal conversation with me for a while. And during that conversation, my lip was like quivering uncontrollably, just like I was so agitated.

 

Reema Khrais

It started to feel like the walls were closing in all around Quinn.

 

Quinn Topham: I was so upset. I just went home and cried. I was like, I, I don’t, I want this to stop. I don’t wanna be in his class next semester, but if I transfer from his class, everyone will know what happened. 

I’m just imagining the big collective “we knew it, we told you so, you’re the person who didn’t understand this /Like I felt very foolish.

 

Reema Khrais: And I can imagine you don’t want to share that with anyone…

 

Quinn Topham: No! And I felt complicit, right? Like I think from the beginning, I felt like, god, I think this is my fault ….to like I can’t tell anyone this. 

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn emailed the teacher that weekend and said I want to talk with you on Monday. And when Monday rolled around, Quinn was nervous, but didn’t hold back: this can’t happen again. The teacher agreed, but then he kissed Quinn again. We both knew we couldn’t help ourselves, he told Quinn. 

 

For the rest of Quinn’s senior year, their relationship intensified. The teacher would eventually push things towards sex. He would lock the door and roll the TV cart in front of it. Quinn didn’t have the vocabulary back then: that this was rape, sexual abuse. 

 

Quinn began to accept what was happening, that they were in a relationship, just one that society would never welcome.  

 

The teacher would paint this tragic picture of their romance

 

Quinn Topham: He was describing us as like star-crossed lovers, thwarted by this 20 year age difference. Now he has his family. He can’t just leave his wife. Like, he would never do that to his child.

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn would lay in bed at night and imagine what people would say if they knew about their relationship with a married man. Their friends and family in the church would see adultery as a horrible sin. Quinn’s mom might never talk to them again. 

 

Hearing Quinn’s story, and others like it, it made me realize just how emotionally powerful a relationship like this can be. I mean imagine, you’re 17-years-old, you’ve never been intimate or seriously dated anyone before. And suddenly someone you respect, who you hope to one day become like, is telling you that among all the other students, among everyone in this world, they want you. Because what you two have, it is something as grand and as poetic as the stories of Shakespearen tragedies. 

 

And for Quinn, what felt at first exciting began to morph into what actually felt like a tragedy. They felt like they were on a path that was predestined, a path much bigger than them, and it was too late to undo it. 

 

When Quinn graduated from high school, they figured their relationship might end there. College was going to open up a new world, with new possibilities. 

 

But Quinn ended up going to a school just half an hour away from home, and nothing seemed to change. 

 

They were still in touch, still having sex. And whenever Quinn had any urge to share this with someone, he’d tell Quinn, we both have as much to lose if word came out. It would destroy both of our reputations. 

 

Quinn Topham: At some point, I’m like this is my life, I’m stuck in it I feel pretty doomed and I’m participating too

 

Reema Khrais

To keep this secret, to keep their reputation intact, they did what a lot of victims of abuse do: they stopped seeing family as much, stopped talking to old friends, and didn’t bother to make new ones. 

 

Quinn Topham: Because all I’m thinking about is this dreadful secret all the time. 

 

Reema Khrais: What story would you tell yourself about why you’re with him? Like, how did you justify it in your mind?

 

Quinn Topham: I think my world stayed so small that he felt valuable to me as somebody who knew me. I think like the importance of like feeling seen and understood by someone.

 

Reema Khrais

And as Quinn got older, his influence on their life only became stronger, especially in terms of Quinn’s career.  You’ll remember Quinn wanted to become a high school French teacher. He would tell Quinn, for students to take a young, attractive woman like you seriously, you need to get a PhD. 

 

So after college, Quinn enrolled into a grad program in Los Angeles. And the relationship continued, even with the distance. 

 

And as Quinn began pursuing a career in teaching, they couldn’t help but think of something that the teacher had told them back in high school. 

 

Quinn Topham: He had told me that…from the beginning… that one day when I became a teacher, I would understand the line that he had crossed and that I would hate him for it. I had spent years reassuring him that that was not true.

 

Reema Khrais

As a teacher assistant, Quinn started to wonder if he’d been right.

 

Quinn would stand in front of the class, looking at their students, and the imbalanced power dynamic became shockingly apparent. 

 

Quinn was so protective of their students that they’d often lose their temper or lash out at other TAs if Quinn thought they were being disrespectful towards students. Quinn didn’t know it then, but this difficulty controlling anger was a symptom of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. 

 

Little by little, Quinn noticed their feelings towards the teacher were shifting.

 

Quinn Topham: Why am I waking up at five in the morning to call you on your drive into work as a grad student? He was engaging with me and what I cared about less and less and like just dumping on me, or like describing what he saw while he was driving. It was just like…. this is not the stuff that dreams are made. I’m not seeing you as this like smart mentor anymore. I’m seeing you as like this boring guy who never changes up his routine. 

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn’s world began to crack open a bit. 

 

Yet, for the next several years, Quinn’s life was still enmeshed with the teacher’s. I could spend a lot more time talking about it, but what you need to know is that this relationship weighed heavily on Quinn, it was the source of their depression, a darkness that loomed everywhere they went. Even when they were miles away. 

 

Quinn would try to end things, but the teacher would remind Quinn that they have an unbreakable bond. At the same time, Quinn began to slowly reframe what happened to them as a teenager. They learned how consent isn’t possible in a relationship involving an adult teacher and a high school student, or between an adult and a minor in general. 

 

And it wasn’t like there was this one lightning bolt moment, Quinn’s untethering from the relationship happened slowly over time until one day they built up the courage – and the physical distance – to say I’m done. 

 

In 2012, nine years after the teacher began grooming Quinn….Quinn called the teacher, and told him…. I’m cutting off all contact. 

 

Quinn Topham: I’m feeling very angry with him. So I told him…I don’t wanna hear from you. Like don’t call me, don’t text me. Don’t email me. Um, blocked him on everything eventually cause he didn’t respect that 

 

Reema Khrais: How did it feel to end things with him? 

 

Quinn Topham: I felt powerful. It still wasn’t like the most powerful realizations that came later, but I was like …I think I was stunted by you.

 

Reema Khrais

For the first time, in a long time, Quinn felt optimistic about their future and all its possibilities.  Life felt lighter. But the thing with trauma is that it can be like a ghost, it stays invisible, resurfacing when you least expect it. 

 

A few years later, Quinn was preparing to go to a local hiring fair for teachers. 

 

It’d been a long time since Quinn set foot near a classroom. Since ending things with the teacher, they’d quit their Phd program… the thought of teaching in a high school felt unbearable. 

 

They were living in the Bay Area and had come out as trans, nonbinary and queer. They’d been working odd jobs, cleaning  houses, driving for Uber. It wasn’t uncommon for their bank account to hit zero. 

 

Quinn Topham: It just feels so scrappy and barely hanging on and it’s not adding up to any stability. And I’m feeling a little too old to be right, just like…. It’s not where I thought my life would be. 

 

Reema Khrais

And so it was at that point, in their late 20s, when they decided maybe it was time to finally go back to teaching. Maybe they were ready. 

 

For the hiring fair, Quinn wore the nicest dress pants they could find and had a folder in hand that included their resume. 

 

But as soon as they walked into the school building, Quinn felt off…

 

Quinn Topham: I am feeling like bristly and self-protective and like, like not just not part of the crowd, but like trying to throw up walls around myself 

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn scanned the room, at the teachers in their teacher clothes talking about teacher things. Antagonistic thoughts started racing through Quinn’s head. 

 

Quinn Topham: I’m just seeing everyone in there as an adult who’s a teacher who’s united about protecting the secrets of what teachers do to students. And like some of you are hurting kids, all of you are in on it, you’re either a predator or an enabler, like just disgusted and scared 

 

Reema Khrais

Intellectually they knew that that wasn’t true. But that didn’t change that feeling of panic and fear. Being constantly on guard for possible danger, seeing everything as a threat, it’s another symptom of PTSD. 

 

Quinn started to feel their heart beating faster, their palms getting sweatier. And standing there, under the fluorescent lights, they had a panic attack. 

 

Since they were 12-years-old, they wanted to become a high school teacher, and now whenever they thought of the career, all they could think of was the abuse. 

 

Quinn Topham: And so to still experience like this major barrier just made me so sad and angry,

 

Reema Khrais

They were angry at the teacher, at the colleagues who’d whispered and joked about Quinn. At the school district, at all the adults and systems that had made it possible for 17-year-old Quinn to be in this relationship for nine years and still til’ this day carry feelings of shame and responsibility.

 

Quinn walked out of that hiring fair that day and realized this wasn’t something they could just snap out of and move on from. 

 

No, Quinn decided they were going to sue the school district and hold all the enablers accountable for what had happened. Quinn found a law firm and started the process. 

 

Quinn Topham: And I am so desperate right now. If there’s a way to actually get money, for this to be recognized as something that cost me like financially and I could be compensated for that. That would be very validating just to be fought for in that way. Whether or not I got money, I would get a lot out of that. 

 

Reema Khrais

Talking to Quinn about this, I wondered… how do you even put a price tag on what childhood abuse cost you? How do you gauge who you would’ve become, how your career may have unfolded? If you didn’t have the burden of carrying a terrible secret 24/7. If you weren’t in perpetual fear that at any moment your life might shatter. What’s the cost of lost youth? 

 

Quinn met with an outside evaluator to go over the financial impact, not just how the abuse affected their professional life and ability to make money, but also how the trauma might creep in later in life and what that might cost them. What happens if Quinn were to have a child one day? What would it be like when that child goes to school? Or when they turn the same age Quinn was when the abuse started? 

 

Quinn was suing the school district for mental anguish and emotional distress and could receive a seven figure dollar amount.  

 

Quinn Topham: I had so many ideas of what that might change for me, ranging from grandiose  I’m gonna go to therapy and I’m gonna make everybody in my life that I wanna heal… I’m gonna have them go to therapy with me too. So here’s my seven different therapy buddies *laughs*

Reema Khrais

This is money that would come from the school district’s insurance, but once news of the lawsuit became public, that didn’t stop internet trolls from claiming students would go without textbooks because of Quinn’s lawsuit. 

 

Quinn didn’t pay any mind to that, they’d finally done what for years had felt impossible. They told the truth. And what happened next is something 17-year-old Quinn could’ve never imagined. They felt supported, believed.. When Quinn’s mom found out, she didn’t shun Quinn, she embraced them…

 

Quinn Topham: I felt so sad though, thinking like, is this the reaction she would’ve had when I was 18? Could all of this have been avoided?

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn was featured in the local news and soon enough, it felt like everyone in Quinn’s hometown knew about what had happened 

 

Quinn Topham: And so like people are asking me like, do you think there’s anyone else? Anytime people would ask that, I was like, I…yeah, not that I know of!

But then I was on the phone with my mom. She was checking in. S​​he had heard from somebody at church, somebody  had talked to my mom and said do Quinn’s lawyers know about Ashleigh? 

So my mom calls me and says there might be another person. And as soon as my mom said the name Ashleigh, like, it clicked for me as like…yes.

 

Reema Khrais

Towards the end of Quinn’s relationship with the teacher, he’d started talking with Quinn about another young student he was impressed by, her name was Ashleigh Griffin. The same Ashleigh from the last episode. On December 8th, 2016, Quinn sat at their desk, found Ashleigh’s profile on Facebook through some mutual connections and began to type her a long message…

 

Quinn Topham: I said, hi, Ashleigh. I don’t really know how to reach out to you, but I think it’s important, so I’m going to try. 

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn went on to explain how they’d been sexually abused by this teacher and holding onto this secret cost them so many years and so much pain. 

 

Quinn Topham: Short story, I was a student of *this teacher* between 2001 and 2003, and he sexually abused me. I thought it was my fault because of how my religious beliefs taught me to think about sex, and because I didn’t understand how he had abused his power as my teacher and as someone who was supposed to protect me.

Holding this secret and my shame cost me so many years and so much pain. I filed a lawsuit in September against him for his actions and the school district for not protecting me. 

I’m reaching out to you because I think we might have something in common.

 

If my story is also your story, I don’t need anything from you, but I wanted to be one voice that tells you it wasn’t your fault. You didn’t do anything wrong. I believe you and all my resources and everything my heart can muster are yours.

Take care of yourself, and let me know if I can be of any help to you, even if you just want someone to talk to.

 

Reema Khrais: Were you nervous about whether she’d respond?

 

Quinn Topham: yeah, yeah, nervous, excited. I think I was imagining that she had a more together life than me, and would maybe like, oh thank you so much!

 

Reema Khrais: Which is not at all what actually ended up happening.

 

Quinn Topham: Not at all what happened. No, that’s for sure.

 

Reema Khrais

After the break: Ashleigh replies

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I think it said like, “I think we have something in common, or we might have something in common.” 

 

Reema Khrais

This is Ashleigh Griffin. The day she got Quinn’s Facebook message, she’d just gotten home from work and was standing in the middle of her room, her phone in her hand.

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I just followed the little notifications before I could process what was happening.

 

Reema Khrais: Once it hit you that it’s from Quinn, how does your body react? What are you thinking? 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I think stunned, frozen. I was like, oh my gosh, this is that person

 

Reema Khrais

Ashleigh had heard of Quinn, not just that they’d also been in a relationship with the same teacher, but how they were now filing a lawsuit against the school district…Ashleigh quickly read through the message

 

Ashleigh Griffin: And I remember like, kind of like the double brain cognitive dissonance, of like, it feeling so good to have Quinn know and say that we had something in common, and like, okay, first things first set Quinn on the right track….let them know we have nothing in common! Like nip that in the bud!

 

Reema Khrais: Oh why do you say that? 

 

Ashleigh Griffin:  I don’t wanna be a part of this. I’m scared that Quinn is like looping me into it.

 

Reema Khrais

Ashleigh’s heart started beating faster…all she was thinking was please keep me out of this lawsuit

 

Which is basically what she wrote back…

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I fully support you in this, but please, please, if you have any power, don’t let me be brought into it

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn remembers reading that message right away…here’s Quinn…and btw I should say Quinn and Ashleigh have pretty similar voices..

 

Quinn Topham: I think it felt unexpected and like I kind of had to freeze to not make a wrong move. Like have I already made a wrong move? Is this already threatening?

 

Reema Khrais

Then Ashleigh gave more context, she told Quinn…I need to be upfront and transparent with you, I’m still in a relationship with this teacher…

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I was trying to express believing and supporting Quinn and still being in contact with him and his family, and really feeling for him and his family. That was, that was complicated too. Um, but I was like, trying to be honest about that and like, name it early on for Quinn. 

 

Reema Khrais

Ashleigh had basically told Quinn, I believe that you were abused, but that wasn’t my experience. I don’t have grounds for a lawsuit. 

 

Quinn was completely taken aback…they’d just poured their heart out to someone who was on good terms with their abuser. 

 

That’s when Quinn started to learn how Ashleigh’s life also became entangled with the teacher’s. 

 

Ashleigh grew up in the same town as Quinn, she’s seven years younger, so they didn’t overlap in high school. 

 

But I was surprised to hear so many similarities in their backgrounds. Like Quinn, Ashleigh was in the marching band and her social life was mostly through her church– she was raised Evangelical. She‘s also one of many siblings, she was the oldest and always felt like she had to take care of everyone. 

 

Ashleigh wasn’t the best student, but was a curious teeanger, she’d read anything she could get her hands on. 

 

Back in her junior year of high school, six years before she got that Facebook message from Quinn….Ashleigh signed up for an AP English class with the teacher, English was her favorite subject.. but like the rest of the students, Ashleigh was intimidated by him…she remembers the first time the teacher singled her out. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: He held me after class and he said like, something, he was like, Ms. Griffin, why don’t you talk more? Like I know your voice is shaking, but I want to hear you talk more. And that felt like maybe I was smarter than I thought I was. 

 

Reema Khrais

He’d succeeded in making her feel special and then shortly after, he crossed a line. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: During class one day, he would like pace the classroom while he was lecturing and often like, touch people to call on them.

But he, while he was lecturing, came up and stood behind me. And he tucked my tag into my shirt and like rubbed my back while he was doing it. And what was like really disturbing to me was I didn’t like it. I knew I didn’t like it and I could not say anything. Like I just felt so frozen. 

 

Reema Khrais

Ashleigh’s seat was positioned in a way where no one could see this. Ashleigh didn’t know how to make sense of it. Then the following year, she had one class with him and had another period where she worked as his class assistant. He’d tell her that she’d need to come in during the weekends, which she thought was weird, but you know you do as you’re told. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: And throughout that, he like was like, touching me more. But I like doubted myself that it even happened half the time. Like he would hand me the hall pass, but like hold my hand while he did it.

 

Reema Khrais

Ashleigh doesn’t remember the first time he kissed her, but by the end of her senior year, it’d happen often. 

 

Ashleigh would tell him multiple times, I don’t want to do this anymore 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I felt like I must be such a bad communicator. Like, I keep thinking I’m saying things but it’s not working. Like I just felt crazy 

 

Reema Khrais

Like Quinn, Ashleigh had never been sexually intimate with anyone before. Ashleigh also didn’t think the relationship would continue the way it did after high school. 

 

Reema Khrais

When she went off to college, she’d spend most weekends with him. And she never told anyone in her life. Instead of staying up til 2am eating junk food with her roommates, laughing at bad movies, she’d find herself lying in bed next to him while he was asleep snoring, and she’d think to herself… most 18-year-olds probably are not spending their Friday nights like this…

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I felt sooo guilty for like sleeping with a married man. I hated myself for it. Like, and like I felt like it’s not even this love story, like it’s just this teacher! I felt so much shame around that. 

It was scary, but it wasn’t worth losing what I liked about the relationship.

 

Reema Khrais

Ashleigh liked that she had someone she could confide in, someone who felt like a partner, but also like a parent and a mentor all wrapped up in one person. And she felt too complicit, too dependent on him to know a way out. 

 

During this time, the teacher was also seeing Quinn, which Ashleigh didn’t know about.  

 

But Ashleigh did know Quinn existed. The teacher would talk about them, how Quinn was an important person in his family’s life, he even had a picture of Quinn with his family as his computer’s screensaver, but as far as Ashleigh knew, it was entirely platonic. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I just felt like Quinn was like this distant, brilliant person who had this whole cool life like in grad school and working on a PhD and like all the things that I thought he approved of and then he stopped talking about Quinn at all.

Like, I asked about Quinn sometimes and he kind of shut down the conversation. 

Reema Khrais: And now, you know, that’s because Quinn had ended their relationship

Ashleigh Griffin: Yes, now I know that

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn had filed the lawsuit a couple years after Ashleigh graduated from college. Ashleigh first heard about it from the teacher, he told her it’s all garbage, that Quinn was lying. And at the same time, he started to fear that Ashleigh would break away too. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: He started saying things like, you’re gonna, you’re gonna regret this someday you’re gonna turn against me. You’re, you claim to love me now, but someday you won’t. I can’t trust you. I was so confused and frustrated by this, so I’d like try to convince them. I was like, no, I love you. I want this. Like, talk him out of it. And that became the dynamic after that.

 

Reema Khrais

He’d tell Ashleigh how the lawsuit had ruined his marriage, he was sleeping on the couch, he was lonely. Ashleigh was the only one who understood him. 

 

And it’s around this time that Ashleigh gets that Facebook message from Quinn….

 

After Ashleigh told Quinn, “hey I’m still in a relationship with this teacher,” Quinn responded as sympathetically as they could. 

 

Quinn Topham: I said that’s pretty hard to hear, but shit’s complicated and I get that’s where you’re at.

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn thought about totally cutting off contact. But something in them wanted to keep talking to Ashleigh. Ashleigh wanted to keep talking too. So they kept talking on Facebook messenger nd started to open up more about their experiences with the teacher…while still trying to be mindful of each other’s feelings

 

Quinn Topham: I think an awareness around like triggers and awareness around like trauma, dumping, oversharing, things that hurt the other person. So we’re being gentle with each other.

 

Reema Khrais

The week they connected, they exchanged messages for hours at a time, sometimes well until the morning…and they weren’t just talking about the teacher, they were learning more about each other. Quinn admired how much Ashleigh read, how she’d casually drop Maya Angelou quotes into conversation. 

 

 And Ashleigh was in awe of the queer community Quinn had actively built in their life. Also she loved just how thoughtful Quinn was, how they always seemed to ask the right questions. 

They swapped childhood stories, asked each other about their work, life goals.

 

They also discovered they had the same taste in music, that they were both big fans of Brandi Carlile.  

 

And when they’d talk about their relationship with the teacher and things felt too heavy, they’d send lyrics back and forth to each other 

 

They were bonding, but that didn’t change the fundamental difference between them.

 

 Quinn was still moving forward with their lawsuit. And Ashleigh was still seeing the teacher. 

 

In fact, Ashleigh told the teacher that she was in touch with Quinn, which did not go over well with him. He started not just blaming Quinn, but Ashleigh for how his life was falling apart. 

 

And it’s around this time that Ashleigh, because of her conversations with Quinn, because of how the teacher was reacting, she started looking back at the story she’d always told herself. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: It made me rethink every single thing about our relationship and none of it was true anymore.

 

Reema Khrais

For years, Ashleigh had thought about the relationship as complex, but honest. That honesty was comforting. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: Like I thought, for as bad as this makes me feel, for as complicated as it is, at least he’s not lying to me. Like he’s lying to everybody else. He’s lying to his wife. That’s what I think men do is they lie, and at least I’m in a relationship with a man where I’m not being lied to. I’m not being tricked. We’re in it together. And then it turned out I was wrong

 

Reema Khrais

Many of the same things he’d done with Quinn, he’d done with Ashleigh. Those long weird hugs in the classroom. How he also offered to sell Ashleigh his car. And how he’d lock the door and roll the TV cart in front of it…

 

Ashleigh Griffin: Like that wasn’t, that wasn’t a thing he thought of in the moment that was so clever. That’s what he does, is he moves the TV in front of the door, like, just like tiny little things like that.

And I think that was like the first moment there was any baby seed of a thought of like, did you take advantage of me…? Like…I was 17. Everything I thought was new to both of us, you had done before, you planned it. And I felt so betrayed and sickened by that. 

 

Reema Khrais

Ashleigh told the teacher she needed some space, but he kept texting and calling her. Then one day he showed up to Ashleigh’s job unannounced and said he was her dad. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: And that scared me a lot. Like he was mad at me, telling me I needed to leave with him. I like literally hid in the closet and when that happened, I was like, I don’t know him like I thought I did. I thought we had this like strong relationship and it turns out I don’t know anything. 

 

Reema Khrais

After that, she cut off communication with him for good. Ashleigh felt certain, she didn’t want him in her life anymore. And now with Quinn on her side, it was easier. Finally, she felt free. 

 

The weeks and months that followed were still difficult. Both emotionally, and financially. If you listened to episode 1, this is around the same time that Ashleigh was selling her eggs to stay afloat. 

 

Something that stuck with me while talking to Ashleigh, and Quinn, was how the abuse impacted other decisions they made in their lives, in ways that didn’t always make sense at the time. Like it eventually dawned on Ashleigh that her egg donations — why she found it so appealing, why she did six times — a lot of that had to do with the teacher. 

 

And the way Asleigh explains it, it’s heavy, but it makes sense to me. She says sometimes when you’ve experienced trauma, you can find yourself subconsciously reenacting it in other parts of your life, while hoping for a different result. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I think the very specific physical vaginal pain of egg donation felt pretty similar to these other kinds of crappy sexual experiences.  And through egg donation, I felt that pain, I felt like that very intimate personal pain and was tended to in it, and had people take it seriously, and had people respond to me.

 

Reema Khrais

When Ashleigh was just 17, inexperienced and vulnerable, the teacher had taken something from her, and in these hospital settings, it felt possible to take some of that back. 

 

After Ashleigh cut off things with the teacher, she began to wonder just how long it would take to move on. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I’m thinking to myself maybe in a few years I’ll be okay. Quinn is a few years ahead of me and is not okay. So I  just felt so hopeless and disconnected from myself.

 

Reema Khrais

Quinn was also going through a really difficult time, talking with lawyers, preparing for the depositions, it was all incredibly draining. Most days it was hard to get out of bed.

 

By then, Quinn and Ashleigh had been talking for several months, and both of them desperately wanted to meet in real life, and so on April 1st, 2017 Quinn mustered the energy and made the long drive from California to Washington, to visit Ashleigh. 

 

Meeting in person felt momentous, so Quinn made a grand gesture. They pulled up in the parking lot of Ashleigh’s work and blasted a song from Brandi Carlile…a song with some of their favorite lyrics 

 

Quinn Topham: Which were like… I can be the engine, you can be the wheel and we can drive it home, never have to worry about being alone.

Like, so she saw me pull up, she saw me like get out of the car, but she was peering out from like somewhere else 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: **laughs** so I went around the corner so that I could see Quinn first, and so that I could approach Quinn…I think surely we hugged

 

Quinn Topham: Yeah it did feel a little awkward at first right

 

Ashleigh Griffin: there was definitely awkwardness, but at least for me, there was also an immediate like comfortability that I wasn’t sure would happen 

 

Reema Khrais

They spent several days together, and at one point they turned to each other and were like…

Ashleigh Griffin: Do you want to get tattoos? Yea sure! 

And we’re like, Ooh. Like what about like a vintage car wheel? 

What would that look like? Ooh, what color? 

 

Reema Khrais

They got tattoos on their biceps to represent the song, a car engine and a steering wheel. It was a reminder that they’d be there for each other, to offer fuel and direction, and that, ultimately, they’ll get farther together than if they were alone. 

 

That week, they drove around the town where they both grew up, pointing out places that felt significant to each of them…

 

Quinn Topham and Ashleigh Griffin: Like this is the house where this happened! That’s the house where that happened! Like it felt like comparing notes and comparing maps and worldviews and so much was more overlaid than but it’s like he’s not what we have in common. We have this whole town we both spent lots of time in. We both have like streets and topographical references. 

 

Reema Khrais

This week that they spent together…it felt magical and healing, and, for Quinn, it was a nice distraction from their lawsuit which was still underway.  

 

But more than that…meeting in person took their relationship in an unexpected direction. 

 

Quinn Topham: We were together by the end of that trip

 

Reema Khrais: Oh wait wait ….what? 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I know….

 

Reema Khrais

Ok so clearly I didn’t expect to hear that they got together…. and they also didn’t expect that to happen.

 

Ashleigh Griffin: It was all much more physical, and less conversational *laughs* And I think early on, I don’t think we had a ton of conversations to like, to define it or try to define it.

 

Reema Khrais: Right, It sounds like you all weren’t concerned about making sense of what was happening

 

Ashleigh Griffin: Yeah, nothing made sense that was happening in my life and so this was a nonsensical thing that felt good

 

Reema Khrais

Months later, they took a trip together to the Grand Canyon. They set up a hammock on the edge, overlooking the park. In that moment between sunset and dusk they realized this thing between them wasn’t just a bond from shared trauma, or just a hookup. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I was excited. I felt in love And I think I was like being really careful, like trying to be fair to Quinn to make sure that this wasn’t just like newfound freedom from this other relationship. I’m like, no, I actually like Quinn, I like you. Like this feels like personal. And of course it’s like trauma bonded, but it feels like more than that too, like we’d get along with each other even if we had met a different way.

 

Reema Khrais: Like does it just sort of blow your minds that you all are here together?? . …like how are you making sense? 

 

Quinn Topham: It feels a little surreal to me, but like, like it also feels very real, but yeah, it felt like a movie.

 

Reema Khrais: It does feel like the plot line of a movie.

 

Quinn Topham: Yeah, it’s a movie nobody would give it approval. It would be too unrealistic, right? Like it’s, it’s silly

 

Reema Khrais

Even after having spent weeks talking with them about their story, I’m still shocked by how everything unfolded, it’s pretty wild. 

 

Falling in love felt so surreal and joyful. But the backdrop was still grim, they were still reeling from the impact of the abuses. Quinn especially was grappling with the emotional and mental fallout of the lawsuit.

 

Then just weeks before the trial, Quinn got bad news from their lawyer. After months of legal proceedings that had cast a huge cloud over Quinn’s life, the case had been dropped because of statute of limitations.

 

Reema Khrais: What was it like when your case got dismissed? How did that feel?

 

Quinn Topham:  I’m disheartened and I’m a bit dazed. I was grateful for the things that I had needed it to do as far as being a vehicle to announce some things. It’s not ideal. It’s crappy. It sucks the way that energy shifts to the details about the law instead of like the harm done.

 

Reema Khrais

Not only was it awful for Quinn to relive their trauma in the public record, but for months, Quinn had put their life on hold because of this lawsuit, and in the process they’d racked up a lot of credit debt.

 

Meanwhile, the school district had kept the teacher employed, on paid leave. During the litigation, the teacher did admit to having a sexual relationship with Quinn, and that they did have sex in his classroom, though he claimed that this only happened after Quinn had turned 18 and graduated. 

 

Ashleigh, who originally wanted nothing to do with any lawsuit, started to reconsider. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: It surprised me to notice that I did want him held accountable in some capacity. I kind of felt like, well then fine…. I’ll sue next

 

Reema Khrais

Ashleigh worried… what if she ends up in the same position as Quinn…she processes the full extent of the harm much later, but then her statute of limitations passes? Then no one gets held accountable.  

 

Ashleigh Griffin: It kind of felt like now’s my chance

 

Reema Khrais

Ashleigh filed a lawsuit against the school district. She wanted to hold not just the teacher, but administrators accountable, to have her trauma and lost youth recognized publicly. And with her account zeroing out at the end of each month, just to cover rent, Ashleigh couldn’t help but think of how much the money would make a difference in her life. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: And mostly that maybe it wouldn’t make the relationship worth it, but maybe it would make the lawsuit worth it. Like if that’s the cost of like how hard this trial is, then that makes sense to me 

 

Reema Khrais: And can you explain just like briefly explain… what makes the trial hard to someone who might not understand?

 

Ashleigh Griffin: Like everybody’s talking about me, but nobody’s asking me any questions. I have to sit there and listen to what people have to say about me. Some of it is nice, some of it isn’t. Some of it is true, some of it isn’t, but I don’t get to respond to it. 

Like you just have to sit there and like take whatever’s happening and it’s somehow completely about you, but you have no voice in any of it. So it was absolutely retraumatizing.

 

Reema Khrais

One of the only healing things that came out of it was when a few teachers testified and explained the guilt they felt, how not doing anything to stop it had haunted them. 

 

Then about a few weeks into the trial, after re-living so many traumatic moments, Ashleigh decided it’d become too much to handle

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I don’t wanna do this anymore. I hate this. I don’t wanna be here. And so I went to Quinn’s that night and I think I told them, I was like, I’m not doing this. I’m not going back tomorrow

 

Reema Khrais

They were sitting on the couch together, both wanting to just move on with their lives. Ashleigh pulled out her phone and started writing an email to her attorneys. 

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I’m done. Sorry, I’m not going back. And before I pressed send, I saw that I received an email from the attorneys offering a million dollars.

 

Reema Khrais: Woah!!

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I was just shocked 

 

Quinn Topham: I don’t, I think I, I, I just felt stunned, 

 

Reema Khrais

The school district was settling. Throughout the litigation, the teacher denied having any sexual relationship with Ashleigh. The district denied liability, but was offering Ashleigh a settlement,  which would avoid having the case decided by the jury.  

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I sent back, yes, I want that. I’m done. More than any joy about the money, I just remember relief that the trial was over and that, and then man, bonus, that it’s not just me quitting, but it’s me accepting an offer.

 

Reema Khrais

In the end, after attorney fees, Ashleigh received close to 450-thousand dollars. Before the money hit her account, her balance was -33 cents. 

 

Reema Khrais: So you received, you know, close to half a million dollars… is there any amount that ever feels sufficient…?

 

Ashleigh Griffin: No, I would, I would trade it in a heartbeat to have my 17-year-old self back. Like, no, there’s no amount of money that I could be offered to make it have seemed worth it.

 

Reema Khrais

Ashleigh spent a lot of that money helping family and friends. And both Ashleigh and Quinn hope to use some of it to build a family, to have a baby together.  

 

Ashleigh and Quinn have been together now for six years. They live in a house in the Seattle area….Quinn is about to graduate from a teaching master’s program and hopes to finally start teaching later this year. The two of them are also now foster parents. 

 

As adults, when Ashleigh and Quinn think back on their experiences, one of things that pains them most is how many people, how many adults in their lives, knew what was going on, but did nothing. 

 

Quinn Topham: all the adults who could have made reports that went nowhere, or investigations that the district didn’t follow up on, right? Like there was so such knowledge. It wasn’t just suspicion.  

 

Ashleigh Griffin: Quinn and I talk about this a lot, that it’s like also… all, all the people who got talked out of their own instincts, like how did that happen?

 

Reema Khrais

Both Ashleigh and Quinn make the point the lawsuit, the money – that wasn’t what helped them heal. In a way, yes, the money gave them space and time to process, to not have to worry about a looming financial crisis…but what’s made moving forward feel even remotely possible is having each other

 

Ashleigh Griffin: I feel and am seen by Quinn in a way that like very few other people, nobody could see me and know me.

And to have like a baseline of shared languages and shared experiences, I think made so much possible for me that maybe would’ve been possible for me someday, but I think would’ve taken me a very long time

So like I have gotten the benefit of not having to do kind of anything by myself since I met Quinn. So that’s, it’s life changing.

 

Quinn Topham: The extraordinary part about our story is that like, we’re together, but the harm that we both experienced is so ordinary and commonplace but for it to be so matched is like, is kind of magical with Ashleigh

 

Reema Khrais

If you or someone you know has been affected by sexual abuse, first I want to say you’re not alone. 

For this episode, we consulted with RAINN, the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network. They have a National Sexual Assault Hotline that offers free, confidential, 24/7 support at 800.656.HOPE that’s 800.656.4673.

 

If you want to reach out to us, share your thoughts, or even share your own story, we’d love to hear from you all. You can always email me and the team at uncomfortable@marketplace.org

 

Also, if you have not already, be sure to sign up for our weekly newsletter. I write about what’s on my mind and the team collects their favorite recommendations, things to cook and watch and listen to, you can sign up for that at marketplace.org slash comfort.

 

Marque Green

This episode was produced by Alice Wilder and me, Marque Green. It was hosted by Reema Khrais. We wrote the script together. 

 

The episode got additional support from Hannah Harris Green, Peter Balonon-Rosen, and Hayley Hershman.

 

Zoë Saunders is our senior producer.

 

Our editor is Jasmine Romero

 

I’m our digital producer, with help from Tony Wagner 

 

Our intern is Yvonne Marquez.

 

Sound design and audio engineering by Drew Jostad.

 

Bridget Bodnar  is the Marketplace’s Director of Podcasts

 

Francesca Levy is the Executive Director of Digital.

 

Special thanks to Mark Anfinson… Kevin Hastings and and Erinn Robinson from RAINN 

 

And our theme music is by Wonderly.

 

Reema Khrais

Here’s a little sneak peek for what we have in store for y’all next time on This Is Uncomfortable…

 

Matt: pay pigs, cash cows, wallets, ATMs, cash dispensers.

 

Reema Khrais

We step into the world of financial domination and submission, and how for one man, that meant relinquishing his money to complete strangers

 

Matt: And I hit the button and I sent my first 30.

Reema Khrais: How did that feel?

Matt: I was like, Man, there is nothing more degrading that I’ve ever done that was such a rush.

Reema Khrais

That’s next week.