What is the proxy for Twitter? 

Make Me Smart April 21, 2023 Transcript

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Kai Ryssdal 

Seriously, Jayk, are you kidding me? Freaking guy, I’m right here with the headphones on man. You could have just said “we’re starting.” Hey, everybody, I’m Kai Ryssdal. Welcome back to make me smarter when we make the day make sense. It’s Friday the 21st of April.

Kimberly Adams 

Yes, we made it to Friday. And I am Kimberly Adams. Thank you for joining us for happy hour, or economics on tap as we like to call it around here. Just a reminder, you’re going to be able to watch the video of this podcast on YouTube. And so today we’ve got some drinks, we’ve got our news fixes and then we’re going to take a break and then half full/half empty. And you look like you just had quite the refreshing beverage. What do you have Kai?

Kai Ryssdal 

I am um, I was torn. I was in the grocery store 15 minutes ago because I didn’t know what I wanted to have. And so I went to an old standby. Stone FML WIPA. Hazy? And FML kind of sums it up right now. So there we go. Just leaving that right there.

Kimberly Adams 

I am I’m in the office today and I’m operating with limited resources here. So I am having a tequila with tangerine sparkling water. Which looks like water.

Kai Ryssdal 

What I love is that looks how you can find a cocktail anywhere. It does look like water. You could’ve gotten away with it.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah, I did have some I actually do have some bitters here, but I thought that was gonna be a little too much. Keep it simple.

Kai Ryssdal 

If I was trapped on a desert island and we had to make a cocktail I would want to be with you. That’s all I’m saying.

Kimberly Adams 

Yes, indeed. I would. I would whip up something probably involving coconuts.

Kai Ryssdal 

I was just gonna say. We would have something coconut water-ish and distill something. And then we would be alright, and then we wouldn’t care we were stuck on a desert island. I don’t know.

Kimberly Adams 

Yes! There’s a whole scene in Pirates of the Caribbean like that.  What have you got?

Kai Ryssdal 

You go first.

Kimberly Adams 

You go first?

Kai Ryssdal 

Bridget Bogner back to senior produce on a day were the hosts just go “What are we even doing?” You go first. You go first.

Kimberly Adams 

Is that kind of day? Isn’t it? Alright, mine, I’m not going to spend too much time on it because nobody wants to hear about elections and politics any earlier than we have to. But I did want to put a pin in this Washington Post story. It’s an exclusive, where basically, they got wind of a GOP donor conference and a Republican legal strategist named Cleta Cleta Mitchell, who if that name sounds familiar to you, it’s because she was one of the main lawyers pushing the election denial and trying to overturn the 2020 elections with Trump and company and ended up having to step down. And you probably saw clips of her if you watched any of the January 6 hearings. Big name Republican lawyer who really pushed a lot of these spurious election fraud claims, right. So she was speaking to GOP donors over the weekend. And I’m gonna read from The Post here and told them “that they must band together to limit voting on college campuses, same day voter registration, and automatic mailing of ballots for registered voters.” This is what was in her PowerPoint presentation. Oh, go ahead.

Kai Ryssdal 

I’m so no, I was just gonna say I’m so glad you made this your item because in all honesty, I saw it. It kind of went by me. I didn’t really concentrate on it other than the we have to limit voting on college campuses. But I hadn’t put the two to two and two together on the Cleta Mitchell’s the one to do this thing. Wow. Just wow.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah. And, you know, there’s a strategy, you know, and PowerPoint presentations. And this is not like the official GOP strategy. But she does have a group and is talking to donors, and they’re really pushing this and you and I discussed the… it’s called the election integrity network is the group. And it’s… you and I discussed this the last time there was a presidential election. If your strategy to win is fewer people voting that’s, that’s that’s a problem.

Kai Ryssdal 

I saw it put yeah, yeah. No, keep going. I’m sorry. We got we got some lag going on here.

Kimberly Adams 

There’s really not much else to say… But democracy is not a spectator sport. I’ll leave it at that.

Kai Ryssdal 

I saw it put really well today on Twitter, which I am weaning myself off of. But it said that whoever it was posted, you know, the the team that’s winning, doesn’t try to change the rules. You know? I just I don’t know. I just don’t know.

Kimberly Adams 

You know, I’ve kind of avoided talking about Twitter just because I’m over it in many ways. But there was a interesting piece in that I shared on slack from I think, New York Magazine, which had a great headline. I gotta find it. I think it was something like Twitter frees its hostages. Which basically. No, I’m sorry. This was yeah, this was New York Magazine Intelligencer. And it’s basically making the argument that by removing all the blue checkmarks, which effectively is what happened today, or yesterday, yeah, yesterday, that Twitter is giving, in some ways and out to the people who were kind of on the fence about whether or not to stay. Because it now if you do remain still have the blue checkmark, you’re kind of outing yourself as somebody who paid for Twitter. And, it doesn’t mean that you are who you are anymore. And anybody could be, you know, not that I’m recommending anything, anybody could be you on the internet now. But I’m very curious about what this is going to mean, for especially in our industry, how people assess reach, and authority and credibility, because people have spent years I mean, decades at this point, building brand identities and based on Twitter followings, right? And I’ve heard from friends about people who didn’t get jobs, because their Twitter following wasn’t big enough, because they were looking for someone who was an established name and who had a following. And so what’s the new proxy for that going to be? Is it Instagram followers? Is it TikTok followers?

Kai Ryssdal 

That’s such a good question. Sorry. That’s a story. That’s a story. You should do that story.

Kimberly Adams 

Okay I’ll do that story next week.

Kai Ryssdal 

What? What’s the proxy for that? Right? Because it matters professionally. It matters reputation, why… that’s a really good story. What is the proxy for Twitter? Because as you said, people got and lost jobs because of that. That’s a great idea.

Kimberly Adams 

Well, and also developed authority. I mean, think about all the people over the years that we’ve had on the shows that had an idea and got a big following. And then they became a celebrity or an expert in the field or known person in the field because of that. Where’s that discovery going to come from? The other interesting thing I saw about Twitter was another Washington Post story, which I’ll find and share in the show notes, which was about all the people who were behind the deal for Elon Musk to buy Twitter. Like all the different financing groups and individuals that helped bank roll it and the varied interests that many of them have. And this idea that, you know, the Saudis bankrolling Elon Musk taking over Twitter, and now Twitter kind of falling apart as a community for activists and journalists, in many ways, it serves them. Right? If you’re talking about the groups that maybe don’t like activists and journalists gathering and getting together on this platform, then this is kind of the ideal outcome.

Kai Ryssdal 

You know, for a woman who wasn’t really going to talk about Twitter, that’s a very considered and thoughtful soliloquy right there. I mean, it really it was.

Kimberly Adams 

Twitter, the thing we love to hate now. I know. All right, what’s your news fix?

Kai Ryssdal 

Alright, so mine’s a quickie. We’ll just we’ll just blow on past it. So yesterday, I was all about car repossessions and how things are maybe not so great because car repos are up and car loan delinquencies are up. And, you know, that’s bad for a whole lot of reasons labor force and people getting to work and all that jazz. Here’s a good sign again from Bloomberg. They’re, they’re picking out a lot of tidbits actually, Bloomberg is. In New York City the other day for the first time, transit system, ridership hit 4 million for the first time since the before times. Now, average ridership in the before times was about five and a half million. So we’re not back there all the way yet. But first, for the first time, we’re at 4 million. So this talks a little bit about cities coming back. This is a good indicator. It’s a positive indicator. It’s an economic vitality indicator. Here’s another one. Box office, movie box office for the first let’s see (goes through the months) for the first three and a half months of 2023 is on a par with the first three and a half months of 2019. So people are going back to cities to the urban core, and people are going back to movies. Now part of that movie thing is because of the Super Mario movie, which I just for the life of me don’t understand it. Although one of my children is just dedicated to go seeing it. But that’s a whole different thing. But but look, so yesterday was maybe not so great today is, you know, maybe actually quite a bit better. And thus, you have the conundrum of trying to figure out what to do about the economy. If you’re Jay Powell, or Joe Biden or Kevin McCarthy. This economy is confusing and policy is challenging. I’m sorry, I’m actually just debating with myself whether or not I should have said Biden and McCarthy because really, they’re just politicians, and it’s all mostly for show. So Jay Powell, that’s what I’m thinking. Let’s leave that in. Bridgette as you go to edit this just leave that whole thing. It’s always better to hear me thinking in real time.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah. Are you going back to the movies again this weekend? You’re gonna go see Super Mario Brothers?

Kai Ryssdal 

Well we we’ve we’ve got a 16th birthday in the house. So that is taking up most of the weekend. Also, I have no desire to see Super Mario. I don’t understand why my 21 year old son who’s just gaga over this movie. I just don’t get. Dungeons and Dragons I might go see but not this weekend.

Kimberly Adams 

You can see Sabri’s pot.

Kai Ryssdal 

Oh, yeah. Oh, that’s right. So we should give the plug.

Kimberly Adams 

Oh, we talked about it when Sabri was on the show. So yeah, okay. He has. Yeah, he has…. one of his balls has a cameo in the Dungeons and Dragons movie. Sabri Ben-Achour. I think I might actually go to the week the movies this weekend. There’s a new anime film out. I mean, it’s not new. It’s new newly released in the US called Suzume. And, you know, I love anime. And so I think I’m gonna go see that. And, and I was I was chuckling to myself when you said I don’t understand what my 21 year old son wants to see Super Mario Brothers. And I’m sitting here ike, I’m planning to go see a cartoon this weekend.

Kai Ryssdal 

So, alright, nevermind. I’m only gonna get myself in trouble.

Kimberly Adams 

No go for it. Go for it. It’s fine.

Kai Ryssdal 

Well, look, so anime is don’t at me people when you hear this. Anime is sophisticated. It is art. It is a genre. Super Mario is, not to disparage video games I know there’s a lot of art and creativity and dialogue and all that stuff that goes into video games. But it’s a video game from like, back in the day. Like pixels and you know, pay 25 cents in the arcade video games.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah, but it’s still a franchise that puts out new games with some regularity.

Kai Ryssdal 

Alright, I was not aware of that. So I’m a little detached from reality. Anyway. I told you I was gonna get myself in trouble. Let’s move on.

Kimberly Adams 

Yeah that’s okay. I’m not much of a gamer. We’ll ask Daniel Shin to come and explain it to us.

Kai Ryssdal 

Oh he’s a gamer. That’s interesting.

Kimberly Adams 

Oh, yeah, he’s a gamer. Anytime there’s like a gaming thing. I’m like, I just asked him he knows all the answers.

Kai Ryssdal 

That is so interesting.

Kimberly Adams 

All right.

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, you go, you just you just jump in. I took a beat you go.

Kimberly Adams 

We’re so off today.

Kai Ryssdal 

You know what it is actually so sorry this is a little behind the scenes stuff. When I’m in my shed and you’re in your condo, the connection is quicker than when I’m in my shed and you’re in the marketplace bureau in Washington. Really? That’s so fascinating. It certainly feels like that. I mean, Skullr will tell us one way or the other. Steven Skullr who’s in charge of all things technical. We’ll see if Bridget leaves this in anyway. We’re gonna go now. It’s the news fix that’s done. We’re gonna take a break, we’re gonna come back half full/half empty. Drew Jostad that is going to rescue us from ourselves.

Kimberly Adams 

Okay, this is our wonderful game half full, half empty, where we go through some of the news topics from the week and you tell well, no, we tell you how we’re feeling about them.

Kai Ryssdal 

Nothing about the comrax there. That is just you messing it up.

Kimberly Adams 

We tell you how we’re feeling about these issues. Half full/half empty and toasted by our very own Drew Jostad who is indeed going to save us from ourselves. Drew please.

Drew Jostad 

Half full or half empty on paying your taxes in cash.

Kai Ryssdal 

So I did an interview this week with a guy at Boston University, who full disclosure is writing a book on the benefits of cash and has very strong feelings about the use of cash in this economy. But he tried to pay his taxes with cash. And it is remarkably difficult. And the thing about it is look at $1 bill, legal tender for all debts public and private. But if you go to the IRS and try to give them your money in cash, it’s it’s ridiculously hard. I think it should be easier. Half full.

Kimberly Adams 

Half full only for the reason that he brought up in turn in the interview, which is like accessibility in terms of not everyone… There’s people who are unbanked, people in emergency situations when cash is the only option, and just Yeah, I think it should always be a relatively easy option until we like… until and if we decide to just drop cash altogether.

Drew Jostad 

Okay, Reddit has announced this week, it’s going to start charging AI large language models for access to its posts. Are you half full or half empty?

Kai Ryssdal 

So this is a story that Matt Levin did for us because of that… Because Reddit announced, it’s going to start charging for big AI companies using all the data. There are billions of posts. And what some of these language models do is they they just scroll through those and teach their algorithms how to basically speak English and create stuff. It is a it is a really valuable thing. And Reddit has decided it is going to charge for it. The challenge, of course, is that Twitter has also started charging for access to its API. And that bugs me. So I don’t know how to feel about this.

Kimberly Adams 

I’m hopeful because I feel like it is a step in the direction towards acknowledging that user generated content has value that you can put a price tag on. And perhaps that is a step towards some of that value being passed back on to the users who generates that content. So you can, you know, sign up for one of those things with your credit card where you fill out a bunch of surveys and you get reward points, right? Because they’re tracking what you’re doing anyway. But if you volunteer to give them additional content and information about you, you can get some value back for giving your opinions right. And I think that, especially as we sort of scattered to the different parts of the internet, and there is even it, it becomes more and more difficult because of the settings on Apple’s iPhones and the various paywalls that are being put up on Twitter and on Reddit, it’s going to be more and more costly for companies to very easily scrape data and learn a lot of things about a lot of people quickly. Which means that somebody’s going to be making money off providing that access and information. Now, can we then take the next natural step and have some of that value then return to the actual users? I don’t know. I’m gonna say half full because I’m gonna be hopeful.

Kai Ryssdal 

Fair enough. Fair enough. I buy that.

Drew Jostad 

Okay. All right. A new survey has  summer internship numbers expected to be 9% higher this year than last. Are you half full or half empty on internships as a tool for recruiting in a tight labor market?

Kai Ryssdal 

As long as they pay it, I’m all the way full.

Kimberly Adams 

That’s interesting as as a recruitment tool, because, you know, when I was an intern, many, many years ago, it was in the height of the recession, and there was very little hope that these things would turn into jobs. And now you have people it’s a tight labor market, and people are desperate for new employees. And I guess you lure them in at the intern stage and just try to keep them in your pipeline, which makes sense to me. I mean, always be nice to the intern. You never know when they’re gonna be your colleague. So I’ll go half full

Kai Ryssdal 

Yeah, always. I agree with Kimberly. And I think it’s interesting because I think interns now, the good ones, right, and not to not to make value judgments, but there are interns who are great and interns who are, you know, doing other things, and they don’t have full time and whatever, but I think interns hope, not expect, but hope to be offered full time employment at the end of a successful internship. And I think that’s a change from… I mean, look, I was not your run of the mill intern when I was 34 at KQED. But but I think it’s changed from certainly, when I started in this business, you know, I do wonder how it is in other businesses.

Kimberly Adams 

I mean, I think that there’s not necessarily that direct connection like you don’t do an internship at the you know, New York Times and The Washington Post as a, you know, junior in college and think they’re gonna hire you as a reporter. You do it for the resume builder. Same with law firms. You go intern at a prestigious law firm, to sort of build up your your credibility for whatever you end up doing next. But if you’re struggling to hire, you know, take them how you can get them so yeah, why not?

Kai Ryssdal 

Absolutely. Same, same.

Drew Jostad 

Half full or half empty on revenge dining.

Kai Ryssdal 

I don’t know what that is.

Kimberly Adams 

I’m always gonna go half full on revenge anything. I don’t care what it is. Because I’m petty.

Drew Jostad 

This would be related to like revenge spending, revenge travel, but like after the pandemic, continuing to have elevated demand for dining out.

Kai Ryssdal 

Oh, interesting.

Kimberly Adams 

Sure, restaurants struggled a lot. And those that survived, you know, let them get whatever business they can. Although, I don’t know what it’s like in LA right now but in DC, you pretty much have to have a reservation for everything. If you’re going out because everybody’s so short staffed it’s very hard to just walk into a restaurant and sit down the way that you used to be able to. But you know, sure, revenge dining, go for it. Knock yourselves out.

Kai Ryssdal 

Totally. Same, same. I agree. Half full. All the way full.

Drew Jostad 

Are you half full or half empty on a possible strike by the Writers Guild of America?

Kimberly Adams 

Abstain.

Kai Ryssdal 

Well look, people ought to be paid what they’re worth and what they’re owed. And the dynamics now have changed since the last WGA strike. Hang on. Bonz. Bonzai. Bonz. Come here! Sorry, dog interruption. So look, people ought to be paid what they’re worth and the economics of the industry have changed since the last WGA strike in I don’t know how many years but it’s been at least 10. So yeah, I don’t… look, it’s gonna be terrible for those of us who were the content consuming public, but you got to people pay people what they’re worth and give them a slice of the profits.

Kimberly Adams 

I find it interesting in this dynamic, how they’re trying to protect themselves from ChatGPT and other AI tools writing their work. And I have to imagine they’re calculating the risk that if they do strike, then people will lean even more on those tools to create content, which in some ways could weaken their bargaining end.

Kai Ryssdal 

You don’t think there would be hell to pay? Because ChatGPT as we’ve talked about on this program, and elsewhere is is as amazing as it is right? Is really flawed.

Kimberly Adams 

It is really flawed. But, you know, if you’re writing lines for a sitcom, it might be able to pull that up. Pull that off, I mean.

Kai Ryssdal 

Okay, so this is really just interesting. Another random Twitter insight. I was scrolling through Twitter today and somebody had asked ChatGPT to do a dialogue scene in the style of Seinfeld, which for those who are not up to speed on that, and I imagine most of our audience is but you know, it used to be a sitcom from it was a sitcom from the 90s. So the scene was Jerry talking to George and George had just had his blue check removed. And I will try to find it afterward. But it was terrible. It was very much in the style of Seinfeld, but it was terrible. And Elaine came in and all… It was terrible. It was boring. I don’t think ChatGPT can write things that people are gonna watch that that people are gonna want to watch. Truly.

Kimberly Adams 

Well let me counter this because I was scrolling through TikTok because I still haven’t let that go. And I saw a video of a young woman who was complaining about like her dating life and so she decided to ask ChatGPT to help her build a profile, a dating profile on Hinge. And so for those who are out of the game, on Hinge it gives you these prompts for questions that you have to answer and things like that. So it she had the AI tools like take an image of her and make it like your stereotypical beautiful girl and kind of alter her appearance pretty drastically to look like sort of blonde, extra skinny and like in all the settings that were not real. But so fake photos, and then she just gave the hinge prompts to ChatGPT and then just plopped in whatever ChatGPT said, and she had like hundreds of likes when she woke up the next morning. Because she was like what is it…. Anyway, this is this is so off topic now.

Kai Ryssdal 

Well it’s on the show we decided what the topics are. That’s the name of the game. Bridget is going to cutt this.

Kimberly Adams 

All right is there anything else Drew?

Kai Ryssdal 

Kimberly’s done. (Kai and Kimbelry do a George Constanza) It’s all good. All right.

Kimberly Adams 

Yes, that is it us for…

Kai Ryssdal 

Wow.

Kimberly Adams 

That is it for us for today for the week. Thank God. We will be back next week. I will be better rested. And please do not forget we are going to have today’s pod posted on YouTube later. So thank you for watching if you’re watching it on YouTube later.

Kai Ryssdal 

Unless Antoinette just says you people are out of your minds. I’m not putting this on YouTube and I quit. Make Me Smart is produced by Courtney Bergsieker. Today’s episode was engineered by Jayk Cherry. Drew Jostad wrote the theme music to Half-Full/Half-Empty. Antonio Barreras is our intern.

Kimberly Adams 

Who’s a great intern by the way in the categories that we were talking about earlier. The team behind our Friday game is Mel Rosenberg, Emily Macune and Antoinette Brock. Marissa Cabrera is our senior producer. Bridget Bodnar is the director of podcasts. And Francesca Levy is the executive director of Digital and On-Demand. Almost made it.

Kai Ryssdal 

Very nicely done. No, I think you made it. I think if we pull up both tracks the fade of the theme and you will match.